The Supercar Conundrum and the NGT


Stef

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Apr 5, 2009
1,082
Southern California
I can't make any prognostications on what the car will be worth, because singular exogenous shocks can upend the exotic car market at any time. I will say this though: the Ford GT could do nothing but sit on auto show pedestals and it will be a design icon. It's identifiably got the GT40 DNA but has also gone to crazy places nobody else in the market has. Maybe that will be deemed valuable, maybe not, but at a minimum it will be talked about long after its contemporaries are forgotten.

Every time I see the car in person, I can't help but think "I can't believe this thing even exists."

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It's done pretty well as a race car 12 months in as well, so for a 20 unit per month car, you could find less interesting ways to spend the money.

*WORD*

And.....

"I can't believe this thing even exists"... Yes, so very surreal it is indeed!

Takes me back to when I was just a kid and first discovered all about the Ford GT's and how it was supposed to never happen again, and so here we are today.
When I am not on some work task at hand or putting out fires, my thoughts and day dreaming are concentrated on the NFGT. With all the respect for the other marques, nothing compares to this car, that I would care to spend so much mental energy on. Yes, like a kid again, reading the books, getting a rare glimpse of GT-40 in a documentary or a Wide World of Sports clip with Bob McKay, only this time, its guys like me behind the wheel, how can this be?
I must be dreaming!

No doubt about it , as technology advances further, performance will evermore increase, so you can chase for the "ultimate" for eternity. But as in the 60's, the 2000's and even more today, the Ford GT was the ultimate in performance and design everytime during its debut in each generation and has the history and legend behind it like no other can claim, so it will always be the ultimate by which others are judged and thats good enough for me!
 

fjpikul

GT Owner
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Jan 4, 2006
11,475
Belleville, IL
Mongrel, quit buying appliances built by Lucas.
 

Xcentric

GT Owner
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Jul 9, 2012
5,213
Myakka City, Florida
some people think this is done by design.... they purposely engineer their product to only last a certain amount of time. their whole business philosophy is based on the revolving door customer. it seems that society as a whole has also accepted this.....

The term "planned obsolescence" goes back to at least the 1930s. In the auto industry, Alfred Sloan began annual model change at GM in the '20s and GM sales blew by Ford.

I like Vance Packard's definition of planned obsolescence: The systematic attempt of business to make us wasteful, debt-ridden, permanently discontented individuals. - "The Waste Makers," 1960.
 

timcantwell

Le Mans 2010 Sponsor * Moderator
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Jan 22, 2006
2,634
N.E. OH & Naples, FL
You Got It!

So here are my questions, and I'd sincerely like to hear the responses from the FGT community. Have any of you ever felt this way, and if so, how did you deal with it? For those of you guys who are waiting for the New FGT, what are your thoughts? If you knew that Ford planned to replace it with a newer, faster, better car in 14 months (which I do not think is even remotely on the table) would it change the way you look at it? Hmmm...

Great thoughts on the "merry-go-round" of Supercars. I couldn't agree with you more. I spent most of my career working as a consulting economist, turn-around specialist, so my view of spending money on rapidly depreciating assets always made my stomach churn. I've always been a car guy, but early in my life could never afford anything special. I always bought what I could afford and loved to drive. My first collectible was a 1971 Porsche 911 T. I bought it from a California architect for around $5000 in 1985. I drove it, had a blast with it and cared for the maintenance mostly myself with a little help from a Porsche tech who lived down the road from me. I sold the car in 1989 for $13,000 and considered myself a genius. (Note to self, today those are going for well into the 6-figures!).

Anyway, at that point I discovered that buying a car you liked and which also had the potential to go up in value was the way to go if I intended to buy cars as a hobby. Around 1999 I really wanted to buy a Ferrari. I pretty much wanted any Ferrari, so I plunked down $43,000 for a fly yellow 348ts. It was rough, but I did my magic, drove it for four years and sold it in what was better condition compared to how I found it for around $52,000.

During my time with the 348 I started seriously collecting cars, at first it was just buying stuff that was practical and fun, like a new Porsche Boxter S. As the collection began to grow, I started studying the market and the depreciation curves and vowed to never fall prey to buying the next, greatest "super-whatever" that came on the market. Instead, I decided to patiently wait until the car I wanted fell into the right pricing zone before pulling the trigger. I also established a specific strategy for my collection, which was to focus on modern sports cars that are built in limited quantities, or are limited "hot-rodded" models of their more pedestrian counterparts. (e.g., Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera, Lamborghini Diablo SV, Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale, Ford Shelby GT500 KR, etc.)

By focusing on these type of models and seeking good used and some new "under MSRP" examples (after remaining very patient) I have continued to build a collection of what I would not consider to be "Supercars", but very appealing sports cars build in limited numbers. My collection has risen in value to the tune of 20% over the past 10 years, and I continue to buy more as specific makes and models become available at the right price. Each car is relatively simple, easy for my son and I to maintain on our own (for the most part). Our collection went from being a hodge-podge of whatever car we liked at the time to a truly curated collection, that has both intrinsic value as well as emotional value to our whole family and friends who get to enjoy the cars on the road and track.

That brings me to the new FGT. I have one coming later this year, and I believe that this car fits the mold of our collection and will also meet our strategic goal (both financially, and as a fit into the curated focus of the collection). I remember a few important transactions over the last 15 years, some deals I passed on, and others that I purchased that helped teach me the lesson of "being first isn't necessarily being the best". First was the offer from my Ford dealer early in 2005 who had an allocation for a GT. He offered it to me for $100K over MSPR. I told him "NO THANKS!" I also figured I would never have the chance to own a Ford GT given those prices. I waited merely six months and bought a brand new 2005 in the color and options I wanted for $7,000 UNDER MSRP ($107K saved!).

The second was my Gallardo Superleggera, my wife and I almost traded our 2004 Gallardo in on the brand new 2008 SL which stickered at $260K. We waited less than one year, and the first owner who bought that very car drove it for a couple months (700 miles on the odometer), then traded it for the next bigger, better car. I ended up buying it for $155K, over $100K SAVED. I still own the car and is worth closer to $180-$200K now. I believe the new Ford GT will certainly appreciate, and I also believe that while it is technically sophisticated, it will be far easier to maintain than many of the cars currently on the market that employ batteries and electric motors to support the powertrain and prop-up fuel economy figures.

In my mind, the passion of cars and performance are wonderful things, and the hobby of owning and driving these great machines are a joy, but like anything in life, your passion has to be balanced by realism and you have to place some parameters and reigns on what you as a consumer can and will do with your hard earned money. For me, cars (except my truck and daily drivers) have to be thought of as investments with specific strategic goals and metrics for evaluating their worth, the side-benefit is that you get to enjoy the aesthetics of the their beauty and the thrill of driving each one. Be smart!
 

nautoncall

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 6, 2014
1,093
Mitty, I was just updating some apps on my new phone and had to reload Lamborghini-Talk. I had not been on there in a while and was looking at my old posts and came across yours from 2005 where you traded your GT for a G. Now full Circle!!! Kinda funny how we all search for the latest greatest car and 12 years later you are back again and probably a GT owner for life now!! You can probably counsel a lot of us on "car addiction" . Maybe we should start a support group. CAA (Car addicts anonymous)
 

06fordgt

GT
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Nov 8, 2006
1,908
Toronto Canada
I think its called "OCD" - Obsessive Car Disorder" !!
At least that's what I tell people I have!!
 

fjpikul

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jan 4, 2006
11,475
Belleville, IL
Have you guys been taking writing lessons from Indy GT with these long exposes?
 

Sinovac

GT Owner
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Jul 18, 2006
5,832
Largo, Florida
Have you guys been taking writing lessons from Indy GT with these long exposes?

Without the accent over the last "e", you're just describing something you do when you wear your trenchcoat in the park.
 

Ed Sims

GT Owner
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Apr 7, 2006
7,850
NorCal
The way I type those long posts would take me a week to type!

Ed
 

timcantwell

Le Mans 2010 Sponsor * Moderator
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Jan 22, 2006
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N.E. OH & Naples, FL
Have you guys been taking writing lessons from Indy GT with these long exposes?

Huh?
 

Ed Sims

GT Owner
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7,850
NorCal

Long winded with the fingers is what I think Dr Frank is trying to say.

Ed
 

PeteK

GT Owner
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Apr 18, 2014
2,267
Kalama, Free part of WA State
In my mind, the passion of cars and performance are wonderful things, and the hobby of owning and driving these great machines are a joy, but like anything in life, your passion has to be balanced by realism and you have to place some parameters and reigns on what you as a consumer can and will do with your hard earned money. For me, cars (except my truck and daily drivers) have to be thought of as investments with specific strategic goals and metrics for evaluating their worth, the side-benefit is that you get to enjoy the aesthetics of the their beauty and the thrill of driving each one. Be smart!

Tim, well said. I expect that most of us who have gotten to the point where we can contemplate what supercar to buy next didn't get here by being dumb with our money.
 

HUBBSTER

GT Owner
May 9, 2010
446
Miami, FL
Think we all go through this in different ways. I'm a collector so I want everything. As I've aged I realized that though you can't have every cool car you can appreciate them and give them respect and desir has been toned down a little.

I still want 1 of everything but I own like 30 cars and when you're looking at reality of parking, insurance, maintenance on 30+ cars that in itself is a job.

I got a small core of my collection that I try to use one every day. 2006 GT, 13 Aventador, 67 Jag E type, 60 Caddy Eldorado Roadster. All very different, all beautiful and desirable in different ways.

I'll Def make room for a new GT and I got a 02 Bentley Continental & Cobra Daytona Coupe on the Immediate to buy list
 

Sinovac

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 18, 2006
5,832
Largo, Florida
Kirkham makes an outstanding Daytona Coupe.
 

twobjshelbys

GT Owner
Jul 26, 2010
6,053
Las Vegas, NV
Kirkham makes an outstanding Daytona Coupe.

Yeah, I hope you are going to buy an original, but there are only 6 and I doubt any of them are in the mood to sell :).

Kirkham's are aluminum of course, and Shelby's are fiberglass with an alloy option which is a rebadged Kirkham. The Shelby CSX cars are built by HiTech and are the evolution of the previous Superformance model. But the reality is that the Shelby CSX number on the car while it may not make you money will certainly help preserve its value. There are some other replicas, I think CAV has a good reputation, but some of them are very pricey. Used replicas show up often on www.cobracountry.com. A CSX9000 car was the second car I was looking at when I bought my GT. It happened to be a HiTech alloy version (they were thinking of doing it, so it was all hand rolled and gorgeous, built two and will do more but their price isn't competitive - 400+K the last time I asked, which means they really don't want to do it) but the boss just considered it a Cobra with a hard top.
 

soroush

Ford Gt Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 8, 2007
5,256
I like Vance Packard's definition of planned obsolescence: The systematic attempt of business to make us wasteful, debt-ridden, permanently discontented individuals. - "The Waste Makers," 1960.

that would be the advertisers....
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
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Feb 13, 2006
5,770
Scottsdale, Arizona
Yeah, I hope you are going to buy an original, but there are only 6 and I doubt any of them are in the mood to sell :).

Kirkham's are aluminum of course, and Shelby's are fiberglass with an alloy option which is a rebadged Kirkham. The Shelby CSX cars are built by HiTech and are the evolution of the previous Superformance model. But the reality is that the Shelby CSX number on the car while it may not make you money will certainly help preserve its value. There are some other replicas, I think CAV has a good reputation, but some of them are very pricey. Used replicas show up often on www.cobracountry.com. A CSX9000 car was the second car I was looking at when I bought my GT. It happened to be a HiTech alloy version (they were thinking of doing it, so it was all hand rolled and gorgeous, built two and will do more but their price isn't competitive - 400+K the last time I asked, which means they really don't want to do it) but the boss just considered it a Cobra with a hard top.

I understand the Superformance fiberglass Daytona Coupes are bigger than the originals but the Kirkham aluminum cars are pretty much exact duplicates including size. Is that correct?

Chip
 

twobjshelbys

GT Owner
Jul 26, 2010
6,053
Las Vegas, NV
I understand the Superformance fiberglass Daytona Coupes are bigger than the originals but the Kirkham aluminum cars are pretty much exact duplicates including size. Is that correct?

Chip

I know the SPF/Shelby cars are redesigned interior. They slimmed down the trans tunnel so you have a wider and straighter foot box. Also some other things like electric windows (no room for crank) instead of the plexiglass race windows. It's a VERY nice and comfortable touring car. Other things like A/C and I believe you can even get a radio (but not by default). Now as far as the Kirkham goes, I have seen the Shelby aluminum which is what it is and I'd say they are closer to the HiTech cars than the originals (and I spent some good time with 2299 at the SAC in Boulder).

As part of the history, if you look at Superformance coupes you will see some are SPO VINs. Early cars were done for Superformance. Then they worked it out to transfer the Daytona Coupe line to Shelby and they were given CSX9000 numbers. The refined interior started with that transition. SPF cars will be a little tighter fit. Because of the evolution, as with all Cobras and coupes, I strongly recommend you SIT IN THE SPECIFIC CAR BEFORE BUYING IT! Don't go down to a dealer and sit in one thinking another one will be identical. Depending on when it was built, it might not be!

Also, for Hubbster, Pete Brock still makes (also at HiTech) his version which he calls the Brock Coupe. It's also slightly different than the SPF and the original.

I'll assert that these variations are all "in keeping with the original intent" and that if you put the original 6 side by side you'd also find some variations as they were all hand built. One in the US and the remaining in Italy. As hand built by different craftsmen they all had to "make things work". The original Cobras have variations too.

As I said, I was truly impressed with the CSX9000 cars in glass. With the interior improvements it was much more comfortable than the Cobra

Note also that lead times on these are quite long. If you're looking for a CSX9000 then check with Hillbank, they have a few new rollers in stock (along with some used ones). Expect to wait at least a year if not two for a Kirkham.

Edit: Engine wise, almost all of the Hillbank finshed cars will end up with a SBF 427 from Roush. I had horrible problems with the 427IR fuel injection but hear that they have switched sources for the DFI controller and that things are much better. But that's irrelevant. The originals came with a 289 and won with them. And that is all they need. I always felt that the 427 was "underutilized" and that it was always being lugged down. A dealer here concurred and was ready to outfit mine (had I pulled the plug) with a NOS 289 HiPo.
 
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txviper

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 31, 2007
613
Think we all go through this in different ways. I'm a collector so I want everything. As I've aged I realized that though you can't have every cool car you can appreciate them and give them respect and desir has been toned down a little.

I still want 1 of everything but I own like 30 cars and when you're looking at reality of parking, insurance, maintenance on 30+ cars that in itself is a job.

I got a small core of my collection that I try to use one every day. 2006 GT, 13 Aventador, 67 Jag E type, 60 Caddy Eldorado Roadster. All very different, all beautiful and desirable in different ways.

I'll Def make room for a new GT and I got a 02 Bentley Continental & Cobra Daytona Coupe on the Immediate to buy list


This is very true. If you truly start adding what it costs to house and maintain a collection (not including cost of the cars themselves) it can quickly add up to a ton of money.

Sq Footage
Lease costs for storage if your facility cannot house everything.
Special building requirements to keep a clean, rodent free atmosphere
Insurance
Maintenance
Batter tenders
repairs
registration
trailers
tow vehicles
ETC.....ETC......ETC...

I dare you to add all that up and divide it by each car you own,lol

I cannot bring myself to do it.
 

w. mitty

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 1, 2005
704
Nautoncall, wow, that brings back many a fine memory. Yes, my first GT was an '05, white with blue stripes and four options. I bought it from a gentleman in Alabama who had lucked into two GTs and had to sell one of them. I sold the white GT, and went on a Lambo binge for about a year. Shortly thereafter, I saw a red GT in the parking lot at a race out at Miller Motorsports Park, and I fell in love all over again. I found a brand new Red car at a tiny dealer in PA, and that was the car I kept for nearly six years. Ironically, it was my all time favorite car and I bought it for well under MSRP. My wife and daughter nearly disowned me when I sold it. Many a wonderful memory in that magnificent car. It still looked new when I sold it to chase the P1.

Yes, nautoncall, let's form CAA and have our meetings at the racetrack! :)