The Supercar Conundrum and the NGT


twobjshelbys

GT Owner
Jul 26, 2010
5,374
Las Vegas, NV
Kirkham makes an outstanding Daytona Coupe.
Yeah, I hope you are going to buy an original, but there are only 6 and I doubt any of them are in the mood to sell :).

Kirkham's are aluminum of course, and Shelby's are fiberglass with an alloy option which is a rebadged Kirkham. The Shelby CSX cars are built by HiTech and are the evolution of the previous Superformance model. But the reality is that the Shelby CSX number on the car while it may not make you money will certainly help preserve its value. There are some other replicas, I think CAV has a good reputation, but some of them are very pricey. Used replicas show up often on www.cobracountry.com. A CSX9000 car was the second car I was looking at when I bought my GT. It happened to be a HiTech alloy version (they were thinking of doing it, so it was all hand rolled and gorgeous, built two and will do more but their price isn't competitive - 400+K the last time I asked, which means they really don't want to do it) but the boss just considered it a Cobra with a hard top.
 

Thugboat

GT Owner
Jan 20, 2009
851
Humble Texas
Hi, MY NAME IS LARRY and I am a car addict.....

I have had many a conversation with Ben Beckert on finding a miracle drug that could quench the thirst of my addiction. As far as my wife, she never noticed the GT in the garage until I mentioned it. Love that woman.

As Carroll Shelby said, "What is my favorite car? my next one."

Great Thread! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Thugboat
 

nautoncall

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 6, 2014
1,036
Hi, MY NAME IS LARRY and I am a car addict.....

Hi, Larry!!!
 

Ed Sims

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 7, 2006
7,569
NorCal
The way I type those long posts would take me a week to type!

Ed
 

timcantwell

Le Mans 2010 Sponsor * Moderator
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Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jan 22, 2006
2,620
N.E. OH & Naples, FL
Have you guys been taking writing lessons from Indy GT with these long exposes?
Huh?
 

Ed Sims

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 7, 2006
7,569
NorCal
Long winded with the fingers is what I think Dr Frank is trying to say.

Ed
 

w. mitty

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 1, 2005
704
For the last two years or so, I have gone through periodic skepticism about the supercar merry go round. I've alluded to it here, but never really explored it. Many of you know what I'm talking about; the never ending quest to have the latest, bestest, fastest, coolest offering. For me, the existential crises began when I sold my Carrera GT and Ford GT in pursuit of the Next Big Thing. That didn't happen, but along the way, I bought a new McLaren 12C. That car was fantastic -- a real game changer, and it altered the way I looked at and felt about the modern sports car. There was just one little problem: it was called the 650S. That car was announced, and the 12C, as much as I loved it, seemed...stale. So, I traded the 12C, took a financial lashing, and embraced the 650S. Yes, it was better, faster, leaner, meaner. It was awesome...until the 675 was announced. My outstanding dealer called and asked if I wanted to have one of the first ones out, and of course, I said yes. Another financial whipping ensued. But man, was that car cool. I mean really, really, cool and really, really, fast. It was the car I decided I could keep forever. But then...three numbers...720. Do I need to go on?

Meanwhile, there was this other nagging and inconvenient truth that began to hijack my mental sharing time: Sir, suppose you DO keep the 675LT forever. Pray tell how you will pay for out-of-warranty repairs? How will you deal with, say, a transmission issue requiring a complete replacement of the sealed, unserviceable gearbox? Will you pay the equivalent of two new Toyotas to keep the thing going? And if you don't repair/replace the dang thing, what will you do with your $400,000 carbon fiber wonder? Maybe use it as a boat anchor? Well, responded the guy car side of me, how 'bout this: just make sure you don't own one of these supermodels without a warranty. Which means, Sir, that you need to just get the newest, bestest, fastest model before the prior one goes out of warranty. That, then, takes us to to aforementioned conundrum. If you are anything less than super- stupid- wealthy, it costs a fortune to upgrade cars every 14 months, whether it be a Ferrari, a Lamborghini, or a McLaren. I had to jump off the merry go round because I was beginning to notice that I was naked and everyone else, especially the guys who were selling me the cars, were dressed.

I need to pause for a moment here and take great care to clarify something that is very important to me: this is NOT a rant against McLaren, I have been the recipient of all of their fabulous hospitality in England on four different occassions. They are among the world's finest engineers. They build cars which are simply astounding feats of skill and imagination. Their cars work, and mine were comparatively trouble free. When they weren't, they were fixed promptly and thoroughly. I cannot and will not blame McLaren for releasing new cars, each one better than the last. McLaren is a car company. They are in the business of building and selling cars. I get that. I applaud it. But I simply can't keep up with it. There are plenty of guys who can, and to them I say go on wif yor bad selfs.

So, just as I was grappling with these thoughts, the application process began for the New Ford GT. I was smitten with the car, besotted if truth be told. I completed an incredibly persuasive and articulate essay on why I thought I should have a new Ford GT. I never submitted it. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Man, do I love that car. Man, do I want one of them. Man, am I thrilled every time that magnificent V6 gives a wholesale spankin' to the yurrupeans. Instead, I took a big retro-step. I went back, back, back, to a simpler time. To a car that I really can keep forever and which I won't want to replace every 14 months.

So here are my questions, and I'd sincerely like to hear the responses from the FGT community. Have any of you ever felt this way, and if so, how did you deal with it? For those of you guys who are waiting for the New FGT, what are your thoughts? If you knew that Ford planned to replace it with a newer, faster, better car in 14 months (which I do not think is even remotely on the table) would it change the way you look at it? Hmmm...
 

nautoncall

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 6, 2014
1,036
First, let me say your writing and reviews made me buy my first GT . Since it was my first super car, I've searched and searched for a better car. I don't have the means to have the latest greatest but I am trying to find "that" car. I would love to have a new FGT, but I wasn't selected. I thought speed might do it for me so I bought a TT Viper that made close to 1000 on pump. It was fun but got old. I really figured out what "driving experience " meant when I got a Diablo Roadster. It's slow it's simple but WOW... made me really understand iconic. I love this car. I think the FGT and Diablo are heaven on earth.

I have a Factory Five Cobra that has a 675hp NA small block that goes 0-60 in less than 3 secs. It puts a smile on my face every time I get behind the wheel.

I wish I could have a 488.. 675lt,, new FGT, but not sure I would get rid of any thing I have.

Every day I scour eBay or craigslist looking for a car better than what I have. Not sure why when I'm blessed with some awesome cars.

I'm with you. How do we stop??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

w.a.nelson

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 29, 2008
916
Asbury, NJ and Bourne, MA
Fantastic writing, as always.

Some complex and emotional issues, with factual and economic components and then the compelling factor of personal choice. Can't help much with that.

My solution is to go back to proven ground and purchase a timeless '05 or '06. While it may no longer be a supercar, it sure is a SUPER car!
 

THamonGT

GT
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
First let me say, with age you'll grow out if it! ha There is no way you can always own The fastest, neatest , stylish and latest thing on the street because manufacturers will always improve on their products to take our money and minds. You can't stay ahead of them. Don't try unless you have more money than sense. Good luck trying.
 

Ed Sims

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 7, 2006
7,569
NorCal
McLaren's are cool & fast but the prices tank. If they would hold their value or go up you would be in a better position Mitty & not be so "naked" (I love your analogy). I have a friend on this forum that kicks himself now for not applying for the NGT. However, you & he have the best car out there: the '05-06 GT. Forever cool & it won't leave you without clothes!

Ed
 

Sinovac

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 18, 2006
5,689
Largo, Florida
Great advice regardless of your faith:

1 Timothy 6:6-7
But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we will carry nothing out.
 

PeteK

GT Owner
Apr 18, 2014
1,337
Kalama, WA
In my mind, the passion of cars and performance are wonderful things, and the hobby of owning and driving these great machines are a joy, but like anything in life, your passion has to be balanced by realism and you have to place some parameters and reigns on what you as a consumer can and will do with your hard earned money. For me, cars (except my truck and daily drivers) have to be thought of as investments with specific strategic goals and metrics for evaluating their worth, the side-benefit is that you get to enjoy the aesthetics of the their beauty and the thrill of driving each one. Be smart!
Tim, well said. I expect that most of us who have gotten to the point where we can contemplate what supercar to buy next didn't get here by being dumb with our money.
 

soroush

Ford Gt Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 8, 2007
5,225
Im a value for your money kind of a guy, and by that definition I will never buy a car knowing I will have to sell or trade it in for the next big thing in 14 month and take beating on the trade. I usually never buy brand new in the first place anyway I feel i get much more value for my money if I buy used. IF my allocation for the NFGT comes to fruition this will be only the second car I have purchased brand new. The first one was a bmw M5 that I leased for three years and it made sense at the time to do that. (I have purchased about 20 cars all together over the years) I don't have to have the latest and the fastest, Im not an early adopter by any means. some people are, they have to have the latest at any cost. If thats your thing that great. if you have that much money to continually lose 30 to 40K on your trades every 14 month Im a little jealous that you have that much money to burn ;) I would personally never do that. Have i lost money on cars? plenty of times. A big part of the reason I bought the 05 ford gt was because I realized even at 180K there is good value, but I never thought there is good value because the price might go up I genuinely thought I would get 180K worth of enjoyment out of the car even if I don't make a dollar back and so far i feel like I have received every pennys worth, so much so that as soon as I realized how much value there was in that car I bought a second one, and almost bought a third but alas Im not a baby boomer and my senses kicked in and said enough is enough. I wish they hadn't. The GT has timeless lines, easy to maintain, plenty of performance, simple to work on and repair, and cool factor off the charts.(not to mention a badass forum with great bunch of guys) for me the car was clearly underpriced and current market trends seems to agree with me. Besides my black GT will leave a Bugatti Veyron in the dust in the mile, so I guess what I said about not needing to have the fasted was just a little lie:) talk about value for your money where else can you have a 1000plus hp super car for the kind of money we spend on our GTs? not to mention that even if you break that 1000 hp car if wont cost an arm and leg to fix it!!! the 0506 GT is by far and I mean by far the greatest bang for the buck supercar in the last 10 years and even still.
 

maxemus

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 25, 2007
882
Miami, Florida
Mr Mitty
I completely understand. I too have lost a big chunk of change on outdated exotics. Only way around it is frankly to stop buying new. A local high end dealer suggested I just accept the steep depreciation curve and assume a 20-30k loss a year and chuck it up to "hobby" costs. I simply decided to stop buying altogether.
I know I'm preaching to the choir but in my particular case, the only car I've truly ever loved is my 05 FGT. Sure I was an early adopter and payed way way more than sticker but 12 years later the love affair is still special to me. Nothing else I've owned will ever compare except when I get my 18 NFGT. That is assuming I can fit in it.
 

soroush

Ford Gt Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 8, 2007
5,225
I like Vance Packard's definition of planned obsolescence: The systematic attempt of business to make us wasteful, debt-ridden, permanently discontented individuals. - "The Waste Makers," 1960.
that would be the advertisers....
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 13, 2006
5,608
Scottsdale, Arizona
Yeah, I hope you are going to buy an original, but there are only 6 and I doubt any of them are in the mood to sell :).

Kirkham's are aluminum of course, and Shelby's are fiberglass with an alloy option which is a rebadged Kirkham. The Shelby CSX cars are built by HiTech and are the evolution of the previous Superformance model. But the reality is that the Shelby CSX number on the car while it may not make you money will certainly help preserve its value. There are some other replicas, I think CAV has a good reputation, but some of them are very pricey. Used replicas show up often on www.cobracountry.com. A CSX9000 car was the second car I was looking at when I bought my GT. It happened to be a HiTech alloy version (they were thinking of doing it, so it was all hand rolled and gorgeous, built two and will do more but their price isn't competitive - 400+K the last time I asked, which means they really don't want to do it) but the boss just considered it a Cobra with a hard top.
I understand the Superformance fiberglass Daytona Coupes are bigger than the originals but the Kirkham aluminum cars are pretty much exact duplicates including size. Is that correct?

Chip
 

twobjshelbys

GT Owner
Jul 26, 2010
5,374
Las Vegas, NV
I understand the Superformance fiberglass Daytona Coupes are bigger than the originals but the Kirkham aluminum cars are pretty much exact duplicates including size. Is that correct?

Chip
I know the SPF/Shelby cars are redesigned interior. They slimmed down the trans tunnel so you have a wider and straighter foot box. Also some other things like electric windows (no room for crank) instead of the plexiglass race windows. It's a VERY nice and comfortable touring car. Other things like A/C and I believe you can even get a radio (but not by default). Now as far as the Kirkham goes, I have seen the Shelby aluminum which is what it is and I'd say they are closer to the HiTech cars than the originals (and I spent some good time with 2299 at the SAC in Boulder).

As part of the history, if you look at Superformance coupes you will see some are SPO VINs. Early cars were done for Superformance. Then they worked it out to transfer the Daytona Coupe line to Shelby and they were given CSX9000 numbers. The refined interior started with that transition. SPF cars will be a little tighter fit. Because of the evolution, as with all Cobras and coupes, I strongly recommend you SIT IN THE SPECIFIC CAR BEFORE BUYING IT! Don't go down to a dealer and sit in one thinking another one will be identical. Depending on when it was built, it might not be!

Also, for Hubbster, Pete Brock still makes (also at HiTech) his version which he calls the Brock Coupe. It's also slightly different than the SPF and the original.

I'll assert that these variations are all "in keeping with the original intent" and that if you put the original 6 side by side you'd also find some variations as they were all hand built. One in the US and the remaining in Italy. As hand built by different craftsmen they all had to "make things work". The original Cobras have variations too.

As I said, I was truly impressed with the CSX9000 cars in glass. With the interior improvements it was much more comfortable than the Cobra

Note also that lead times on these are quite long. If you're looking for a CSX9000 then check with Hillbank, they have a few new rollers in stock (along with some used ones). Expect to wait at least a year if not two for a Kirkham.

Edit: Engine wise, almost all of the Hillbank finshed cars will end up with a SBF 427 from Roush. I had horrible problems with the 427IR fuel injection but hear that they have switched sources for the DFI controller and that things are much better. But that's irrelevant. The originals came with a 289 and won with them. And that is all they need. I always felt that the 427 was "underutilized" and that it was always being lugged down. A dealer here concurred and was ready to outfit mine (had I pulled the plug) with a NOS 289 HiPo.
 
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Specracer

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Nov 28, 2005
6,562
MA
For me its simple, I bought the 05 new, it was a "swing for the fence" purchase. I bought it 1st because it was a Ford, and second, because I knew there was not going to be another to quickly replace it. Here comes the 2017, I'm swinging for the fence, again. And also again, I would not even ponder this car, if it wasn't a Ford. I can't keep up with the latest and greatest super car of the moment, neither emotionally or fiscally. Im OK with that.
 

Xcentric

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 9, 2012
5,213
Myakka City, Florida
1 Timothy 6:6-7
But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we will carry nothing out.
Don Henley: Gimme What You Got

"...you don't see no hearses with luggage racks."

Not usually anyway.

hearse.jpg