Turbo v/s Supercharged?

[Fubar]

I often visit another car forum to learn more about my daily driver. I have been reading a discussion on this other forum about turbos and SC'd cars. Everyone there is in general agreement that a turbo'd cars will make more torque than a SC'd cars on the same engine (making similar HP numbers).

It was my understanding that SC'd car made power quickly (instantly) and therefor could make it earlier in the powerband... whereas a turbo had to "wind-up" but was much more efficient at higher RPMs. What gives?

 

[Kirby Vieira]

I'm no expert, but personal experience with SC and TT's supports your comment. I've always thought a small shot of nitrous installed to only spray at lower rpms would spool up the turbos quicker and eliminate that shortcoming. :cheers

 

[MAD IN NC]

great Kirby, now you add nitrous to the picture :rofl...........

Question I ask is what is the end goal? To be launched to the moon?



........if so, Torrie's Hellion fits the bill - SC performance of a whipple to ~ 2.5k rpm's then turbo blast from there to all 1,100 HP in under 4K RPM.

 

[tmcphail]

I am going to put together a good write up on this shortly and show the pro's and con's of the SC / TT / TTSC setups I have gone through for you guys.

But as Mike asked to start you have to ask yourself what you want out of your vehicle.

 

[nota4re]

Everyone there is in general agreement that a turbo'd cars will make more torque than a SC'd cars on the same engine (making similar HP numbers).

Once again, it is not about "more". The shape of the curve is more telling than peak numbers. This,c ombined with the intended use of the car will tell you volumes about how the car will perform. Take, for example, a generalization about race cars. Typically, you will find very strong peak HP/TQ numbers occuring high in the RPM range and spanning a sweet spot of 2K RPMS. For a race car with the right gearing, this "peaky" and narrow power band may be just fine if the driver can keep the car in this range the majority of the time. For a street-driven car, this same power band may prove to be very frustrating. A wider power band, albeit lower, may be the preferred power delivery. In summary, the discussions shouldn't center around a number but rather a curve.

 

[tmcphail]

Once again, it is not about "more". The shape of the curve is more telling than peak numbers. This,c ombined with the intended use of the car will tell you volumes about how the car will perform. Take, for example, a generalization about race cars. Typically, you will find very strong peak HP/TQ numbers occuring high in the RPM range and spanning a sweet spot of 2K RPMS. For a race car with the right gearing, this "peaky" and narrow power band may be just fine if the driver can keep the car in this range the majority of the time. For a street-driven car, this same power band may prove to be very frustrating. A wider power band, albeit lower, may be the preferred power delivery. In summary, the discussions shouldn't center around a number but rather a curve.

Very true that also heads towards the end customer goal.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Simply stated (and we all know that's all I'm capable of), if your GT REALISTICALLY isn't going to see more than from 2,000 to 4,500-5,000 RPM the way you REALLY are going to drive it - then A Gen II Whipple is THEE only way to go as it provides much greater (and INSTANT) "boost" in that range than turbos will ('cause a S/C provides the same volume of air with every revolution).

But, if your GT will often see "dearly beloved we are gathered here" on the tach - the turbos are the way to go as THEIR "boost" increases with RPM.

(I SAID that was going to be 'SIMPLY stated'. And it was! :lol)

(And it only took 9 minutes for this flippin' 'peuter to post that. Grrrrrrr!)

 

[dbk]

If your GT isn't going to see more than 2000-4500 rpm, it likely spends most of it's time in a bubble and the power it makes is pretty irrelevant. I get your point, but if you care whether your car makes 500rwhp or 750rwhp, you likely on the other hand don't care about winning a second gear roll-on from 30 to 55mph.

My car made 700rwhp at 4k and 850rwhp by 4500rpm. I'd venture to say if you're the kind of cat looking for power, you're probably driving at above 4k whenever you get the chance.

I'm all for both setups depending on your goal, but I think the turbo lag thing is overblown, and in any kind of realistic straight line race, you can hold the dyno sheet in the window as I go flying past yelling "but look at the size of this CUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurveeee" :lol

 

[Empty Pockets]

If your GT isn't going to see more than 2000-4500 rpm, it likely spends most of it's time in a bubble and the power it makes is pretty irrelevant. I get your point, but if you care whether your car makes 500rwhp or 750rwhp, you likely on the other hand don't care about winning a second gear roll-on from 30 to 55mph.

My car made 700rwhp at 4k and 850rwhp by 4500rpm. I'd venture to say if you're the kind of cat looking for power, you're probably driving at above 4k whenever you get the chance.

I'm all for both setups depending on your goal, but I think the turbo lag thing is overblown, and in any kind of realistic straight line race, you can hold the dyno sheet in the window as I go flying past yelling "but look at the size of this CUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurveeee" :lol

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh...wasn't that pretty much whut I just said?:rofl:rofl:rofl

 

[tmcphail]

If your GT isn't going to see more than 2000-4500 rpm, it likely spends most of it's time in a bubble and the power it makes is pretty irrelevant. I get your point, but if you care whether your car makes 500rwhp or 750rwhp, you likely on the other hand don't care about winning a second gear roll-on from 30 to 55mph.

My car made 700rwhp at 4k and 850rwhp by 4500rpm. I'd venture to say if you're the kind of cat looking for power, you're probably driving at above 4k whenever you get the chance.

I'm all for both setups depending on your goal, but I think the turbo lag thing is overblown, and in any kind of realistic straight line race, you can hold the dyno sheet in the window as I go flying past yelling "but look at the size of this CUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurveeee" :lol

Ha :lol

Yeah if I threw in the small point that my car is back to TT only I wonder what the thoughts on that would be :willy

 

[dbk]

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh...wasn't that pretty much whut I just said?:rofl:rofl:rofl

Yeah, but the point is why would you even want a Whipple if your car only sees between 2000-4500 rpm? You said it's the only way to go. The only way to go if you only see 2000-4500 rpm is straight to the dealer to buy a Taurus. :lol These toys are for men, and if you plan on putting on a Whipple, be prepared to use it in manly ways, at manly rpms!

 

[tmcphail]

These toys are for men, and if you plan on putting on a Whipple, be prepared to use it in manly ways, at manly rpms!

You killing me here, I just about fell out of my chair with that sentiment :lol:lol

 

[BlackICE]

Yeah, but the point is why would you even want a Whipple if your car only sees between 2000-4500 rpm? You said it's the only way to go. The only way to go if you only see 2000-4500 rpm is straight to the dealer to buy a Taurus. :lol These toys are for men, and if you plan on putting on a Whipple, be prepared to use it in manly ways, at manly rpms!

Since we all obey the laws of man and nature and most of us don't go the the track on a regular basis, it is a shame we can only use the MANLY RPMs in 1st gear. In second we would be breaking the law!

:lol

 

[dbk]

Since we all obey the laws of man and nature and most of us don't go the the track on a regular basis, it is a shame we can only use the MANLY RPMs in 1st gear. In second we would be breaking the law!

:lol

Chances are, you're already breaking the law just using the manly rpms. At least you are in Michigan, if they feel like they want to pop you for excessive acceleration. That's why I do so much 6000rpm cruising around town. :lol

 

[Empty Pockets]

Yeah, but the point is why would you even want a Whipple if your car only sees between 2000-4500 rpm? You said it's the only way to go. The only way to go if you only see 2000-4500 rpm is straight to the dealer to buy a Taurus. :lol These toys are for men, and if you plan on putting on a Whipple, be prepared to use it in manly ways, at manly rpms!

Aaaaaaaah, Dave, Dave, Dave! I said it's the only way to go IF YOUR CAR REALLY ISN'T DRIVEN ABOVE 4,500-5,000 RPMS! And I stand by that. IT IS. Fax 'is' still fax, Your Manlyship. (There are, after all, many owners who do NOT have their foot in the radiator ALL the time...believe it or not.:lol)

Now, WHY anybody would spend the money to mod their car for that particular max RPM range I have no clue...other than the fact that the Whipple WILL provide more power in the lower RPM ranges and THAT IS where 90% of most street driving IS DONE...without jail time. That and the fact that the Whipple requires a MUCH LESS (read that: virtually zero) by way of mods to install. And, for many, the ease of installing the Whipple, AND returning the car to "stock" if one desired, is of FAR greater importance than achieving the absolute MAX HP wherever it may be produced and at whatever cost...especially "given" that a GT already has more power STOCK than the average guy can really handle anyway.

Krymuny. And here in the beginning, I thought all I was gunna do was just make a simple stmt of basic fact... :frown :rofl:cheers:thumbsup

 

[dbk]

Aaaaaaaah, Dave, Dave, Dave! I said it's the only way to go IF YOUR CAR REALLY ISN'T DRIVEN ABOVE 4,500-5,000 RPMS! And I stand by that. IT IS. Fax 'is' still fax, Your Manlyship. (There are, after all, many owners who do NOT have their foot in the radiator ALL the time...believe it or not.:lol)

Krymuny. And here in the beginning, I thought all I was gunna do was just make a simple stmt of basic fact... :frown :rofl:cheers:thumbsup

Tis not a basic fact my friend. If your car really isn't driven above 4500-5000 save the 10 grand and do a pulley/tune, or better yet, stay stock. You can pin the throttle to the floor at those RPMs stock with stock tires, which you won't be able to do with a Whipple, so the power gain is useless. You said it yourself, the stock car has more than enough power for most people as is, so adding a new blower to go from 20-40 in 2nd gear is definitely not the only way to go!

 

[BlackICE]

Tis not a basic fact my friend. If your car really isn't driven above 4500-5000 save the 10 grand and do a pulley/tune, or better yet, stay stock. You can pin the throttle to the floor at those RPMs stock with stock tires, which you won't be able to do with a Whipple, so the power gain is useless. You said it yourself, the stock car has more than enough power for most people as is, so adding a new blower to go from 20-40 in 2nd gear is definitely not the only way to go!

I agree, but the Whipple sure looks nice through the window. However the extra torque is handy when just crusing along, never have to shift to pass, just roll on the throttle.

:cheers

 

[dbk]

I agree, but the Whipple sure looks nice through the window! :cheers

That it does! The Whipple is impossible to beat from a performance/price standpoint, and it's more along the lines of what the car is stock. But you find me the guy that says "I put on a Whipple that made 730rwhp just so I could go between 2k-4k faster when I putter around town" and I'll show you a biiiiiiig fibber. :biggrin

 

[soroush]

opopopop

here is my 2cents:

turbo will def. make more power, up high, in a straight run the turbo car will def. win, if there is no traction issues, I was just in a tt car this weekend, that dyno's 850 to the wheels, and this car would have traction issues in 2nd gear, 3rd not so much, now considering you can potentially make 850 out of the whipple then for me its a no brianer i would stay with whipple, however if 850 is not enough for you(which is the problem Im having) then the only answer is tt, now the tt car's power delivery is very spiky, it comes on very suddenly and shocks the tires and the drive train. could have long term issue with keeping the car together, clutch transaxle etc. I love the way the power comes on in a sc car but I dont want to sacrifice the top end eigther, so I will do both, if my car make 900 plus on pump gas with the tt sc setup I will be happy for at least two weeks give or take a week:biggrin:biggrin

 

[Empty Pockets]

Tis not a basic fact my friend. If your car really isn't driven above 4500-5000 save the 10 grand and do a pulley/tune, or better yet, stay stock. You can pin the throttle to the floor at those RPMs stock with stock tires, which you won't be able to do with a Whipple, so the power gain is useless. You said it yourself, the stock car has more than enough power for most people as is, so adding a new blower to go from 20-40 in 2nd gear is definitely not the only way to go!

Fubar's origional question IMPLIED he was referring to either upgrading to a bigger blower or a turbo setup. No mention was made about the pros & con's of either of those vs. a pulley & tune. I therefore assumed he just ment swapping for a different (bigger) blower vs. swapping for a turbo setup. My coments were made in that context. And I/we weren't TALKING about hooking all the power to the ground (dat's a w-h-o-l-e nuthur subject). I was talking about where the power is developed.

As far as the "tires" issue, does anyone run stockers with EITHER setup???:eek

Personally, I left mine stove top stock. So, that tells you where my own personal mindset is/was.