SC and TT Characteristics Compared & Discussed

[Fubar]

This is to say nothing about the superiority argument, but the SC was used on the car purely because the time frame was short and the 5.4L with a blower was a known quantity at a low price. I don't think there's any way in hell the Ford GT would have ended up anything but naturally aspirated if Ford already had a well mannered streetable 550 hp V8 on the books. With the cheap and easy power with the good street manners, the SC mod motor was the obvious solution. If you look at where Ford is going with it's engines from here on out, DI and turbocharging are the future. We're gonna get a couple more of these mammoth power SC cars, but I don't think they'll be around more than 5-6 years.

Honestly, I thought turbo were going to rule the world back in the 90s. They were making small engines fast, cheap and fuel efficient. For some reason American cars have stayed away from the turbo craze that hit Europe and Japan. GM is still using a SC on their flagship sports car, Ford is doing the same and Dodge.. well, whatever. I'm not sure why direct injection would make a difference now. I know you have your thumb on the pulse over at Ford, so why do you think their mentality will change now?

 

[sandman]

It appears that more was read into my comments than was stated. I never claimed that any type of car couldn't be spun, or that a TT car would save a poor driver. I'm not a driving expert but those that I have listened to tell me that smooth will beat abrupt anyday. If "the swapping ends comment regarding the blown cars keeps coming up", perhaps it's because there is something to it. The comment that a supercharged car, "can transition from understeer to oversteer with my right foot and.....happen right now" is confirmation of what I was talking about. For an amateur track driver like myself in a Ford GT that has no traction control and no stability control, the hammer blow quickness of the SCs torque delivery must be controlled with a deft right foot to keep the quick transition from understeer to oversteer that you mentioned from turning into a bit too much oversteer. I had no expectations as regards my TT's ability on a track. I bought it to acquire a 200 mph Texas Mile T-shirt. I had driven my car with its supercharger on a track several times and I expected the turbochargers would make my track experience more difficult. At Spring Mountain Raceway in Nevada I experienced the exact opposite result. The smooth power delivery was confidence inspiring. There were about 10 Ford GTs there that day, most of them piloted by better and more experienced drivers than myself. A number of other supercars were in attendance as well. Absolutely nothing on the track that day could run with my twin turbo Ford GT. Running down and passing the supercharged Ford GTs was like shooting fish in a barrel. On the track in my car with the supercharger or the turbochargers I was always between 3500 rpm and 7200 rpm. At those engine speeds turbocharger boost is both quick and smooth, my supercharger's power delivery was immediate and abrupt. My comments are not theory or conjecture, they are the observations of my actual experience with both systems. I'll take your word for it that an expert driver could take advantage of a superchargers ability to rapidly transition the Ford GT from understeer to oversteer. But that's a little beyond my skill level. Some of us would argue that a car that transitions from understeer to oversteer instantly with a stab of the throttle is not the "more forgiving" car.

I evaluate snow skiing equipment the same way. I don't buy world-class skis that require Olympian abilities to extract their maximum performance. I prefer more forgiving skis that make me look like I'm better than I really am.

The TT is kind of like that. If supercharged cars at Spring Mountain Raceway Supercar Weekend were better track cars than my TT, OK. I know most of the drivers at Spring Mountain that day were better and more experienced than me, OK. The driver of a highly modified Supercharged Audi R-8 who was a member there and intimately familiar with the track, utilizing that rapid transition from understeer to oversteer, had the tail of his car come around in a corner and impacted the wall on the inside of the turn cooking off both airbags, ouch. But somehow, at the end of the day, a fat old man who had never driven that track before, with very limited track experience, driving an inferior lag prone TT that supposedly took a lot of work to keep "in boost", set the fastest times of the day. It was probably just a fluke.

All the best.

Chip

It appears that my comments were misconstrued. Inferring that I’m an “expert” driver is just silly! I’m just an average Joe with some old racing experience, but driving isn’t rocket science. You’re right “smooth usually will beat abrupt” I’ve always found that to be true but I still don’t consider a blown GT an “abrupt” car. I also rarely “stab” the loud pedal and when I do on the track it’s usually because something has gone very wrong. It’s all about an educated right foot and car control. What you took as conformation of an “abrupt” car is what I feel is a responsive and controllable car. The “hammer blow” and “swapping ends” along with the misrepresenting of my words regarding the transition capability from under to oversteer, which I feel, is more than a little hyperbole. Yes a blown car can be a handful as I’m sure a TT gal can be also at times. I’m also sure that your TT makes you very happy and that it feels great to pass other GT’s and exotics. I think it’s great that it enabled you to go over 200mph at the mile and I congratulated you at the time. I’m glad that the “fat old guy” set the fastest time of the day in his “inferior lag prone TT’’ (all your words not mine). Maybe it wasn’t a “fluke” and you’re selling yourself short!
What I don’t get is the absolute adherence to the TT siren song and how it is the be all end all. Allowing posters and moderators to denigrate or cast sarcastic comments directed at other members. The mods expunging them and then continuing to allow said members to post their theories with a “be really careful here….” admonition to those that dissent. I guess if I were provided the parts or even a whole system installed gratis I would be towing the party line but sadly I have to pay for mine.

 

[HHGT]

An interesting question for the experts on the FGT development team would be if the TT are so superior to the SC FGT why didn't Ford make it that way from the factory. I believe the option was considered but dropped for some reason. I believe that Ford could have made a TT FGT that is close to the performance of aftermarket TT system while still being in compliance with all Fed and State regulations. Do you think the reasons were cost?

I have never driven a TT, but have seen them in action. I wouldn't think I could out pull one with a Whipple unless I used some laughing gas.

50 State Emissions more than likely..

 

[HHGT]

For me personally, I chose not to upgrade again from a Whipple to a TT is because I don't have the Cajones.....

 

[nota4re]

Honestly, I thought turbo were going to rule the world back in the 90s. They were making small engines fast, cheap and fuel efficient. For some reason American cars have stayed away from the turbo craze that hit Europe and Japan. GM is still using a SC on their flagship sports car, Ford is doing the same and Dodge.. well, whatever. I'm not sure why direct injection would make a difference now. I know you have your thumb on the pulse over at Ford, so why do you think their mentality will change now?

I'm not sure there's a simple answer to that but I do know two of the factors that are influencing the direction. One factor is efficiency and where other geos - if for no other reason than the price of their fuel, have been more efficiency conscious than Americans. Maybe we are starting to turn that corner. Without too much controversy, I hope that it is general accepted that a properly sized turbo system is more efficient that a SC system. (Recent SC advancement - aka 4-rotor designs, etc, are closing this gap) The SC would make a huge leap when/if the technology could be there to shut it off when you don't need it (like our air conditioner compressors!) Mind you tha the turbo has other drawbacks- more heat, complicated plumbing, etc..... but purely from an efficiency perspective, the turbo gets the nod.

The second factor is the buying habits and expectation difference of the buying public. Americans have for eons been infatuated with Torque! Lots of it and down low!! This is the sweet spot of the SC's!!! In contrast, the Europeans have not been conditioned to know and love this and they have been accustomed to ringing out their comparatively smaller engines.

Again, I'm not sure if there's any simple answers.... and in the above I hope nobody reads into any insinuation that one is better than the other!!

 

[Luke Warmwater]

This was certainly the case when turbochargers first started to become popular. A lot has been done to mitigate this over many years of advancement. In fact, this is one of the main benefits of a twin turbo system. With twins, you can select turbos roughly half the size needed to get the job done at the top end. The smaller turbos spool much faster than a single, larger turbo.

What are these advancements of which you speak? Are you using variable geometry chargers? I tried no less than six different turbos on my truck with various sized compressor/turbine configurations looking for the right balance while staying in the map,managing drive pressures, and avoiding surge. It's was always a compromise of course. I also don't understand the twins statement. Yes, you can run smaller turbos in a parallel system but you also have half the exhaust energy to drive them. Again comparing diesel to gas is apples and oranges but in a diesel setup good low end spool and top end flow is accomplished by compounding. Has this been explored with the GT setups? Is it even applicable in a gas application?

 

[BlackICE]

For me personally, I chose not to upgrade again from a Whipple to a TT is because I don't have the Cajones.....

Going to laughing gas is another step up in Cajones. Having an instant 100 to 150 lbs ft of torque jump when you hit the button is much more abrupt than a SC, or TT will ever be! I think only Torrie and Soroush have 1st hand experience with that setup.

 

[Slow Poke]

Whipple Supercharger Dyno

Some one asked to see a Whipple dyno. Here are the modifications by Evan Guyett Performance (Evan is GREAT) and the Dyno results at Whipple. The power delivery seems smooth with most boost coming above 4,000 RPMs. With the Bridgestones, there is no wheel spin in 2nd - 6th gear. 1st gear needs a little throttle management. Running on 91 octane, the max RWHP is 735 with 664 lbs of torque. Whipple stated that they believed if it had been more of a nornal 70 degrees instead of 87 degrees, the RWHP would have been around 750.

Whipple 200AX Supercharger Kit Installed w/20.5psi Pulley
Accufab Twin 75mm Throttle Body
JBA Headers
Accufab Air Inlet Support
Ford Racing/Borla Muffler Kit
Diablo MAFia Module (set on 2)
Diablo Predator Tuner w/Custom Tune
NGK TR7IX Spark Plugs (gapped at .021)
K&N Filter Elements
T&A Remote Transaxle Breather Kit
265/345 Bridgestone Scuderias

 

[nota4re]

That is an awesome power curve!!! Undoubtedly, you must be VERY happy with the results! Thanks for sharing!! (If you happened to have the .drf file itself, could you email it to me?)

Here we are comparing SC and TT's and let's none of us forget that results like Slow Poke posted here are very, very rare and VERY costly to achieve on virtually any other car. Simply amazing power capabilities!!!! And in this case, even CARB legal. Unbelievable!!

 

[RALPHIE]

This thread is beginning to become tedious....

 

[ChipBeck]

The deal.

......along with the misrepresenting of my words regarding the transition capability from under to oversteer, which I feel, is more than a little hyperbole. What I don’t get is the absolute adherence to the TT siren song and how it is the be all end all. Allowing posters and moderators to denigrate or cast sarcastic comments directed at other members. The mods expunging them and then continuing to allow said members to post their theories with a “be really careful here….” admonition to those that dissent. I guess if I were provided the parts or even a whole system installed gratis I would be towing the party line but sadly I have to pay for mine.

Sandman,

You have been around this Forum for a long time, and though your post count is not high you are one of our more recognizable and respected members. As one of a minority of our members who regularly track their cars and take it close to the limits of its capabilities, your posts carry a lot of weight with our membership and with me. My only admonition in this thread was directed at a proponent of the twin turbo system, not to a detractor. I don't allow or disallow any opinions, they are all welcome here. I simply requested that members state their opinions and comments in the first person. I struck a total of three words from this thread and they were "You are wrong", I have not stricken any theories or admonished anybody for dissenting. Members should feel free to tell us what they think and why, or that you disagree and why. Any information one wishes to post can be presented without crossing the line from "I think", or "my experience is" to "you are".

As less than 1% of the Ford GT population (fewer than 40 cars) has been converted to Twin Turbo's, it certainly isn't the end all system and the vast majority of owners will certainly stay with the supercharger. My intent was to accurately represent my actual experience with the car, it was not to misrepresent your words. Perhaps there is a better way I could have more delicately disagreed as you are one of the last people I want to get sideways with.

As regards the value of information, in the beginning, until field experience is acquired, all that we have to go on is theory and extrapolation. From electric toothbrushes to the space shuttle, everything starts out as design theory on paper. When that theory is turned into hardware that can actually be tested, the actual results of that field testing trump all of the theory that came before it. I have tested a number of modifications that I thought would make my Glasair III aircraft faster. My buddy Kirby Chambliss is constantly testing theory and modifications that he thinks will make his Red Bull Air Race plane faster. Our theories are well thought out and based upon 30 years of flying and aircraft building experience. Still, 90+% of the time our theories prove themselves to be wrong in the field, and our aircraft end up being slower. I don't care how well my theory was formulated or how confident I was in its validity, when field testing shows it didn't produce results, my theory is worthless. For a couple years I worked as a test pilot for the MT Propeller Company in Germany. They sent a series of computer designed three blade propellers for me to test on my airplane that they were virtually certain would make it faster. Decades of knowledge and the most powerful computer programming said so. In the air, they were a disaster, some of them slowed my plane down 15 knots. "What I think will happen" is always trumped by "What did happen".

Which brings us back to the twin turbo Ford GT. I would be perfectly happy if mine was the last one ever built (#35). But as we have many members who are considering going in this direction, and as most of them will have to spend approx. $35,000 without ever having driven one, I believe accurate information from members who have experience with these cars "in the field" is more valuable than the theories of those who have not driven one. I had to pay for my twin turbo as well, Jason Heffner refused to comp me! The last thing I would like to have happen is for somebody to spend that type of money upon my recommendation and have it fail to meet their high expectations. Conversely, it would be a shame for a member to decide against this mod on the basis of opinion without experience.

And Sandman, lest you think I don't respect your opinion or ability, I'll make you a deal. At Rally VI, you are the only person I will let drive my car on the track (I'll ride in the passenger seat). Then you can write your comments up, good or bad. Afterward, I'll buy the cocktails. What do you think?? Cheers.

Chip

 

[Fubar]

This thread is beginning to become tedious....

I must admit that this is the politest, "I right, you're wrong" thread I've ever read.

 

[dbk]

Honestly, I thought turbo were going to rule the world back in the 90s. They were making small engines fast, cheap and fuel efficient. For some reason American cars have stayed away from the turbo craze that hit Europe and Japan. GM is still using a SC on their flagship sports car, Ford is doing the same and Dodge.. well, whatever. I'm not sure why direct injection would make a difference now. I know you have your thumb on the pulse over at Ford, so why do you think their mentality will change now?

Largely fuel economy. It's a must have at this point, and even if it wasn't, if you don't want to get crucified you better be producing engines that give the appearance you care about the environment. Small turbo engines say that. Nothing with a supercharger has ever been marketed as the ecologically friendly choice. You can have a small displacement TT DI V6 make 400 hp and get nearly 30 mpg in a big sedan (cough 2012 SHO cough). We're going to have TT DI 4 cylinders used to power SUV's making the same amount of power my first V8 Mustang had barely over ten years ago. That's pretty ridiculous. From the performance standpoint, the same family of engines can make RETARDED horsepower with the wick turned up if you really wanted to go for it.

 

[Hennessey Performance]

We have built 32 twin turbo Ford GT's to date with 2 more in production. The majority of them are twin turbo systems working in conjunction with the factory supercharger. Running 20 psi of boost on 93 octane our system makes around 850 rw hp and a little over 800 rw torque. Our twin turbo GT's minus the blower make about 890 rw hp at the same boost level, however from 2000-4000 rpm the twin turbo supercharged package makes 200 rw hp and lb-ft over the twin turbo only set-up.

I just wanted to throw this into the discussion for what it is worth.

 

[Mullet]

however from 2000-4000 rpm the twin turbo supercharged package makes 200 rw hp and lb-ft over the twin turbo only set-up.

this is one of the main reasons I went with the SC/TT setup. I will drive my GT 95% of the time on the street and not in a "race" environment as will most of us.

Another reason I went with the SC/TT setup is when you tell someone (even gearheads) that the car is SC and TT.....the look on their faces.........

 

[dbk]

What I don’t get is the absolute adherence to the TT siren song and how it is the be all end all. Allowing posters and moderators to denigrate or cast sarcastic comments directed at other members. The mods expunging them and then continuing to allow said members to post their theories with a “be really careful here….” admonition to those that dissent. I guess if I were provided the parts or even a whole system installed gratis I would be towing the party line but sadly I have to pay for mine.

There's definitely no adherence over here and I certainly don't think it's the be all end all. I'm just personally annoyed that with the latitude and respect shared between the members on this site, there are certain people that have recently decided to take a proverbial dump in, on and around Kendall's threads. And now look what it's created! GT owner on GT owner posting crime. But as Chip said, he's deleted virtually nothing and I've deleted nothing.

As for the last line, I really hope that was just an off the cuff theory and someone didn't actually attempt to tell you that was true. I swore I would never majorly modify this car, and then I drove a TT GT and knew I absolutely had to have it. I consider my old buddy Jason Heffner a friend, and I also consider him the owner of more than a used Gallardo worth of my money from car parts and work for me. :ack

 

[dbk]

We have built 32 twin turbo Ford GT's to date with 2 more in production.

I just wanted to throw a congratulations in there. That is awesome!

 

[tmcphail]

I just wanted to throw a congratulations in there. That is awesome!

Agreed there are more out there then I anticipated sweet !

 

[Shadowman]

IMO this thread innocently started as a comparison between systems and just maybe it went a bit sideways because it should have asked for “personal” shared experiences.

I am aware of many folks with both systems and both are happy. I have no one that has said “darn I wish I did not have the gal converted to the turbo system or a huge Whipple aka Meat Grinder” in fact most shares how much they like their gals and those specifically with the turbo system share that having a gal with 850 plus RWHP and the adrenaline rush they experience when then can stretch her legs is fricken phenomenal. Then add to this “all” share that they want to become a member of the 200 MPH club which is a feat that only a few of the supercharged gals have been able to do. I too have experience with the turbo charged gals so in the end the direction I take with my personal projects is “my personal choice” and I will candidly share with all why “never” expecting one to follow my lead akin to a drone but rather add that which I share to their data base which in the end becomes the basis of them defining their dream realized.

At the onset of this thread I did as I always do, I express opinions and data based on both my personal experience and without a doubt in doing so my personal preference can be determined. The key word remains “personal” preference and nothing more. I have no axe to grind with Kendall or Jason in fact just the opposite and yet IMO I was placed in an interesting proverbial box.

Now because there was a post made that was later “deleted” in which I was warned to be careful because it appeared that I was causing issues for Kendall because he sells turbo systems and I do not I can reply by saying that I never hide behind a rock when expressing my views; all that I have shared here I have discussed with Jason Heffner (I mention his name only because he was brought into this thread) and during this act we do not always agree and yet an open discussion takes place. Whether I like or dislike something as well as whether I sell a product or service does not play a role in my comments; my personal drummer plays loud and clear, always has. My skin is thick so if one disagrees with me and or finds me factually incorrect I will either accept that which was shared as another’s opinion without giving up on mine and if factually incorrect I will apologize and make certain that as future data is shared this does not repeat.

As for the turbo gals; IMO the are badass fricken gals and in the end I of all people not only support but encourage personal choice and assist regardless of one’s direction. I answer the phone and work with all including Jason Heffner and Kendall. In fact I have never failed to be there and share as I can and I never expect anything in return; this should be easy to recognize.

Now for Jason Heffner and his support team such as Kendall having integrated in excess of 35 turbo systems and Hennessy having integrated 35 with two presently in the “Q” IMO is fricken awesome.

Having shared this I come back to my original comment about this thread; if it had asked for personal experiences then I feel that the thread would have taken a more enjoyable and less technical direction and yet if one sifts through all of the pages great information was shared and frankly information that supports and encourages all while supporting Jason Heffner, Hennessey, and Whipple.

In the end it truly is not how we can all become the same but rather how we can express our self and live out our personal dream; I for one always get excited when folks such as Torrie share his personal experiences with his turbo gal; in fact I still reflect back on the video in which HP presented Joe’s gal within which Torrie said “I am going to get me one” and then “very “ soon afterwards he did and then promptly created his dream and has never looked back. And then Chip when his gal #34 visited my facility before the Texas mile last year during which akin to a kid in a candy store he spoke of his “Bucket List” desire to enter the 200 mph club; a number that he shattered and frankly a feat that as a supercharged gal would not have happened. These are their dreams and not mine and yet as a friend I am very happy for them as I have remained for all of you no matter the direction taken.

Having shared this I have been and remain happy and supportive of all regardless of the system that they have on their gal and the fact that my participation within this thread was perceived as the means to skew information and even more to discourage others from taking the path of their choice saddens me.

In closing; what one pays for a product or service is of no interest to me as I live in a world where I believe in and strive for a equitable exchange of value; value being subjectively defined by the parties involved and can never be clearly understood by a nonparticipant because a component of value are emotions. The only thing I ask is that when a product is being presented for sale this is clearly stated, if an evaluation of a product is being requested that this is clearly stated, if technical information is being requested that it be clearly stated, and if personal opinions are being asked for that this be clearly stated otherwise the four very different venues about the same core item can become one and sadly and all too often chaos results.

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[Chris A.]

the fact that my participation within this thread was perceived as the means to skew information and even more to discourage others from taking the path of their choice saddens me.

It wasn't by me.

Your posts are always informative and usually structured in manner that helps the "lay" person understand the topic (me).....not to mention always polite and respectful.

I don't view every post made on this forum....but when I see one from Shadowman I'm typically drawn to it knowing it will be time well spent.

You takes care:tongue