Why are dealers such a rip off


ChipBeck

GT Owner
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Feb 13, 2006
5,773
Scottsdale, Arizona
Chip,

I think you miss under stood me. I have no problem with the price I was about to pay [which was over MSRP]. It was the fact that you make a deal with one person then somebody changes the rules because they want more money, because I was ready to pay for it. Maybe I should not have said ripoffs. Sorry for stirring up a hornets nest.

Neil

Neil,

Your comments were not offensive and you certainly did not stir up a hornets nest. Your comments are the norm and my defense of the retail auto business is akin to King Canute standing on the shore commanding the tide not to come in. Please don't take my comments personally as I say them generally and hope my buying tips will help as well. Having spent decades in a business that is universally derided, I still have a deep respect for the men & women who are successful in the retail auto business. I know how tough it is and I'll continue my futile defense of that profession as long as I can communicate.

Next time you buy a car, try my Fleet Manager tip. You'll like it. Cheers.

Chip
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
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Feb 13, 2006
5,773
Scottsdale, Arizona
Why is that?

Car dealers have earned their reputations over the years. The public didn't wake up one day and say, hey we are going to hate car dealers. All of the "value add and hand holding" that goes on at dealers must not be worth it to customers. Perception is reality and the reality is that in general the public doesn't trust the car buying process at dealers and over the years more dealers than not have earned that reputation through practice.

As far as markup, maybe not at the dealer level, but absolutely at the corporate level. There is a ton of markup at capacity for the auto companies, can you say UNION!!!

Go into a apple store. People know there is markup and they walk out of the store excited, happy and cant wait to pay the high prices again. Why is that? There is more transparency in history of the car world around pricing but yet the public still thinks the dealers rip them off.... Why is that?...

David,

Ford is a public company and it's financial statements and unit sales are easy to find. 2010 was Ford's best year in a long time and their profit per car (including Ford Motor Credit) was $1242.23. That works out to a little over 3% on an average unit selling price of $33,500.

Most people hate any business that requires them to negotiate because it makes them uncomfortable. Imagine if most Apple I-Pod sales involved a trade in, financing, and negotiations on both interest rate and the balance due after trade allowance. The average Joe would find that akin to singing the National Anthem naked in front of a stadium full of people. Apple stores would not be quite so much fun.

Most auto buyers not only find the value added and hand holding provided by car dealerships to be worth it, most of them could not successfully buy a 4 or 5 figure car with out it. Like it or not, that's the reality of John Q. Public today. Drive around your city and look at all of the "Pay Day Loan" and "Check Cashing" shops. They are everywhere. Who the hell uses them?? The huge swath of the American public that can't even open a checking account or get a credit card.

You are a Ford GT owner and you are completely different than the average car buyer. Let me give you a few more insights. People buy things when they are...1. Comfortable and...2. Feel like they are getting the best deal possible. To be successful in auto sales, one must be able to immediately identify and split potential buyers into 2 groups as they require completely different sales methods.

The big group I call the worker bees and it consists of 95% of all Americans. These men and women go through life working for someone else, they are comfortable when someone else is in charge, they can't stand the pressure of having to make decisions (but they LOVE to bitch about the decisions of others), and negotiating terrifies them because they don't like confrontation and are scared they will make a bad decision. To sell cars to this group you can't ask them questions because that puts them on the spot and makes them uncomfortable. For example, if you say, "Would you like to go for a test drive?", many of them freak out as they think a test drive might obligate them. So you "direct them" by saying, "Hop in the drivers seat" and most of them will comply as they are more comfortable taking orders than making decisions. Then you get in the passenger seat and say, "Start it up and turn right on the street over there". When you get back from the test drive you can't ask them if "they would like to come inside to discuss numbers" because again many of them will freak out. So you direct them by saying, "Come with me and I'll give you some more information" and then walk into the office. They will follow. The whole presentation needs to go like that or they get uncomfortable and that's bad.

The small group are the queen bees who make up only 5% of the population. They are business owners, managers, and professionals who make decisions, negotiate, and direct human effort every day. Almost every Ford GT owner fits into this group. If you treat these men & women like the other group they will be immediately offended and will take their business elsewhere. Queen bees must be identified and handled properly right from the start. They will direct the entire sales process and the function of a salesman here is to listen and respond.

I am not criticizing or putting either group down, just describing what makes them tick.

Auto makers are aware of how much customers hate negotiating and many have tried "one price" selling (Saturn is an example). But it never works because a value for a trade-in still has to be agreed upon, and loan terms must be worked out. One price selling on used cars is obviously impossible because every used car is different. Finally, the tradition of "getting a deal" on a car is so ingrained in the public's mind that even those customers who hate to haggle will make a low ball offer on a car because they feel like they must to get a good price. Until and unless new cars are all paid for with cash and there are never trade-ins, negotiating at car dealerships and the discomfort and dislike that stems from it is unavoidable.

As such, the inescapable nature of a process that is required in some businesses, especially if that process makes some people uncomfortable, makes many people dislike it no matter how professional or well trained they may be. A dentist is much more professional than the kid who takes your order at McDonalds, but people hate to go to the dentist and like to go to McDonalds. Why is that? Why do people continue to go to the dentist? We don't like negotiating and we don't like getting our teeth drilled into but sometimes it's unavoidable.

I find the Apple "Genius Bar" to be a mad house of frustration, long waits, and big crowds. John Q. Public likes it because he can be certain that although he is not getting a good deal, he is getting the same deal as everybody else.

Finally, the Fleet Manager at most auto dealerships works almost exclusively with queen bees all day, every day. If you know what you want and are capable of walking in, writing the check, and driving out, you will find dealing with him to be quicker, easier, and much more pleasant than waiting for your name to be called so some high school kid can wait on you at the Apple Store.

That's my take on it.

Chip
 
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BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Thanks Chip. Another great post! :thumbsup

Of course this information doesn't apply at all to Fcar dealers.
 

jaxgt

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jul 12, 2006
2,794
Very informative posts Chip. Thanks.
Does every dealership have a Fleet manager, as it's a term I'm not too familar with.
 

RALPHIE

GT Owner
Mar 1, 2007
7,278
Chip is VERY correct!! Every new vehicle I've ever bought (except the GT) has been through a dealership's fleet dealer - British Motors, Ford, Chevrolet, GMC. And, there was never any hassle, and the prices quoted were always less than I expected!!!

As for the GT, I got it (for MSRP) from the owner of the dealership.

I've stopped at dealerships and talked with salesmen, but have never been able to put with their :bs
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
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Feb 13, 2006
5,773
Scottsdale, Arizona
Very informative posts Chip. Thanks. Does every dealership have a Fleet manager, as it's a term I'm not too familiar with?

Jax,

Just about every dealership has a special Fleet Manager or Fleet Salesperson. They are responsible for multi-unit sales to rental car companies and businesses. They are happy to sell single cars to any business or professional person who does not need help with selection or special financing. Most of their business is conducted over the phone and you will probably meet him (or her) for the first time when you go in to pick up the car. Just call any dealership and ask for the Fleet Manager.

Chip
 

nota4re

GT Owner
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Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 15, 2006
4,191
Wow! I guess my comments about experiencing more "bad" dealerships than "good" in the hunt for an LS were just way too controversial for the delicate eyes of the forum members and got censored! Sorry to be such a maverick with such wild observations.
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Wow! I guess my comments about experiencing more "bad" dealerships than "good" in the hunt for an LS were just way too controversial for the delicate eyes of the forum members and got censored! Sorry to be such a maverick with such wild observations.

It's not your fault, those pinhead dealers must have mistaken you for a "worker bee".
 

skyrex

FORD GT OWNER
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 11, 2008
2,115
Lake Las Vegas, Henderson, NV
I have been away for a bit and just found this thread. I find Chip's point enlightning. There was info that I did not know about in there regarding new cars. I have had good and bad experiences at dealers in purchasing and service the same as any other product I have purchased. You find good and bad people in any industry. I wish I would have had more Chip Beck type dealer experiences. :thumbsup

However I do believe that when cars become a product that everyone gets the same price for new or used regardless of negotiating skills some of this shade on buying a car would be removed. I have seen dealers, and not just my own experience but friends as well, turn down a reasonable offer and end up selling the car at a later date for less because they thought they could hardball a customer and over played their hand. Particularly in "pre-owned" cars, but also in new cars as well. The disparity I have seen in the new 302 Boss LS is the most recent example that pops to mind. That makes the buying public have a more difficult time in giving the benefit of the doubt to a car dealer.
 

Silverbullitt

GT Owner
Mar 3, 2006
1,757
Lago Vista, TX
I think everyone might be correct on this one. The layer of salesmen at a dealer could generally be the problem. I was ripped off when I bought my GT by the sales manager. We agreed on sticker then he manipulated the trade value and I ended up paying $1,100 over. He had the guts to tell me that I had agreed to 3 over and he cut me a deal.

On another occasion I wanted to simply buy the first GT500 available at the dealer. I reserved my spot on the list verbally and did not have an agreed price. The dealer later decided to auction the car.

Both encounters have taught me a valuable lesson. Wait until the cars are available for a while. I saw a ZR-1 advertised locally at 15 under. There is a feeding frenzy when the next desirable model comes out and it is a free country for the dealer to charge whatever the market will bear. The problem I have is trying to hit a moving target on price and availability when you think the deal is done.

I guess I'm not the typical buyer. I walk onto the lot. Find the car I want and then buy it. I might look inside, but I have never taken a test drive and have always bought from the first dealer without shopping around. I guess I will deal with the fleet manager from now on. Thanks for the advice Chip.
 
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CH53Driver

Shelby GT500 owner
Mark II Lifetime
Sep 20, 2008
285
Arkansas.
Well I finally clicked on this thread and all I can say is Chip is a wealth of knowledge. I wish what he has written on here and other places was required reading in our school systems but unfortunately that will never happen. Chip, you sir are a great American and I wish you would write a book. I would definitely be in line for your autograph.:thumbsup
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
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Feb 13, 2006
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My bad......on purpose.

Wow! I guess my comments about experiencing more "bad" dealerships than "good" in the hunt for an LS were just way too controversial for the delicate eyes of the forum members and got censored! Sorry to be such a maverick with such wild observations.

Kendall,

Your post was fine and so were the other 14 posts I hid from view so I could selfishly push my lengthy blowhard post up onto the first page. :lol It had nothing to do with what anybody said. I have restored your post and will do the same for anybody else that requests it. Normally when I answer an original post with a lengthy response I catch it early enough to make page 1 or I'll respond in a Moderators Note. Sorry about that.

Chip

____________________

Moderator's Note

All posts have been restored. I'll try to control my urge get to the front of the line in the future!! Again, my bad.
 
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Superfly

HERITAGE GT OWNER
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Jun 23, 2008
2,210
Edmonton, Alberta
Kendall,

Your post was fine and so were the other 14 posts I hid from view so I could selfishly push my lengthy blowhard post up onto the first page. :lol It had nothing to do with what anybody said. I have restored your post and will do the same for anybody else that requests it. Normally when I answer an original post with a lengthy response I catch it early enough to make page 1 or I'll respond in a Moderators Note. Sorry about that.

Chip

Chip, Noblesse Oblige my friend. With great power comes great responsibility. I'm glad to see you're cracking your moderator whip for personal gains! LOL Just joking brother.
 

david b

GT Owner
Jun 10, 2010
343
cleveland ohio
Chip,

I agree with you on your points. I think the 95% as you put it always seem to amaze me in decisions buying habits and in general life habits. Appreciate the insight from an insider.
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 13, 2006
5,773
Scottsdale, Arizona
Chip,

I agree with you on your points. I think the 95% as you put it always seem to amaze me in decisions buying habits and in general life habits. Appreciate the insight from an insider.

David,

Your post reminded me of another point that sheds light on why working with a typical auto salesman is so painful for professional people who are not afraid to negotiate. Selling cars is not a high paying job for 95% of the people who do it. They are paid about 20% of the gross profit that remains after discounts with a typical minimum of $100. Almost all regular auto sales people are "worker bees" themselves who can't understand or relate to a professional person. The job involves lots of rejection, low status, high pressure, long hours, working weekends and nights till 9 PM, and the income insecurity of commission only pay. Unsurprisingly, turnover is sky high at most dealerships (50 to 200% annually) who must be constantly training new salesmen. It's hard enough to teach them how to competently handle the 95%, and most of them are not capable of shifting mental gears to identify and relate to a professional person. So they treat everybody the same way and that is maddening to professionals who are not used to being treated in that fashion.

All new car dealerships are assigned "Areas of Primary Responsibility" and they must achieve an acceptable market share in that geographic area or they can have their franchises revoked. Because of this it is not possible to cater to the 5%, there is not enough unit volume there. In order to stay in business dealers need to aggressively go after that 95% with special financing, creative down payments, and aggressive sales methods that many professional people find insulting. That 95% is where the big numbers are.

You have all, at some time or other, found yourself in a bar or some other gathering surrounded by a large mass of middle America. Fueled with a little alcohol, they start talking loudly and you sit, watch, and listen in amazement at that whole different world and culture. Kind of like the Star Wars bar scene. The escape hatch from that mad house is the Fleet Manager. He will speak your language.

Chip
 
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2112

Blue/white 06'
Mark II Lifetime
I will ask the question. Has anyone hear been able to buy a Boss LS through fleet and not get jerked around like the original poster did?

I bought a new truck through fleet every other year for over 12 years and when the GT came out and I inquired about ordering one (in 04'). I wasn't expecting the invoice + arrangement I had on the 7 loaded F-350s I bought. MSRP + a reasonable mark up would have worked.

I was told I had to get in line and be prepared to make the highest offer.

Hence my statement that got deleted. You can sheer a sheep over and over and over but you can cut him only once.

Needless to say, I have taken my repeat business to a different dealer.
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 13, 2006
5,773
Scottsdale, Arizona
I will ask the question. Has anyone hear been able to buy a Boss LS through fleet and not get jerked around like the original poster did?

I bought a new truck through fleet every other year for over 12 years and when the GT came out and I inquired about ordering one (in 04'). I wasn't expecting the invoice + arrangement I had on the 7 loaded F-350s I bought. MSRP + a reasonable mark up would have worked.

I was told I had to get in line and be prepared to make the highest offer.

Hence my statement that got deleted. You can sheer a sheep over and over and over but you can cut him only once.

Needless to say, I have taken my repeat business to a different dealer.

2112,

When Kendall wanted an LS and was being quoted 10-15K over MSRP, I called Tom Glockner at Santa Margarita Ford. They were allocated one LS for the entire year. The car was not built yet. They agreed to 5K over MSRP. Kendall later found one at MSRP before the Santa Margarita LS arrived so he purchased elsewhere but he was able to buy that LS via Fleet Sales over the phone.

That quote of yours is one of my favorites. I heard it years ago from an old Texan who sold cars for us named Charlie Reed. His version was slightly different. "You can sheer a sheep once a year, but you can only skin him once".

Chip
 
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2112

Blue/white 06'
Mark II Lifetime
Then then it is true, all dealers are not equal.

Thanks. :thumbsup
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
2112,

They agreed to 5K over MSRP. Kendall later found one at MSRP before the Santa Margarita LS arrived so he purchased elsewhere but he was able to buy that LS via Fleet Sales over the phone.

Chip

That is amazing because one would think that the market price of that car is more than MSRP and that dealer could have sold it for more. Kendall got a great deal!
 

Indy GT

Yea, I got one...too
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 14, 2006
2,526
Greenwood, IN
Chip always provides great insight into the topics he presents! And from my experience in buying a FGT at sticker (and ordering the unit the way I wanted, 2 option) as well as my sojourn of purchasing an LS, I would say he is spot on.

In my quests I have called and talked to dealerships across the country and quite simply am amazed at some of my phone contacts. Transfer to new car sales and the phone rings for 8-10 times before anyone picks up the line, ask what color their stock number CC212 vehicle is and they appear to have no knowledge of their own dealership stocking system. The number is right there on cars.com but NO color is listed. Put on hold for 90 sec and then he asks how can he help me. Color I ask. Oh....let me put you on hold while I check... I guess I am in the 5% category.

Bosses can be had for MSRP or less, you just have to work at it. My FGT delivery dealer called ME to see if I wanted his LS allocation under MSRP which I executed. He certainly could have sold the car for more in a heartbeat, but, he values my patronage and my repeat business. My point is there are dealers out there who provide exemplary service. I luckily found one and go out of my way to patronize his dealership even though it is several states away. Dealerships which recognize the 5% of the buying public are out there. Sadly they are in the minority, but they are out there. You just have to actively seek them out. And when found, reward them for their service to the measly 5% of us!

Thanks again Chip for your insight.