Fubar
Totally ****** Up
I've never measured the exhaust gas temps. I presume it tells you about your air/fuel in a round about way. What egt should I look for and are they measured in the headers or further back.
WHIPPLE TUNES - Add on to Fubars Fuel Thread
- Thread starter 427Aggie
- Start date
soroush
Ford Gt Owner
- Aug 8, 2007
- 5,256
yes thats exactly what it does, gives you an idea of what is going on in the combustion chamber (how lean or rich you are running), ultimately it would be so trick to have one on each bank of cylinders as close to the head (in the collector) as possible, with this you always know where you and motor stand
cheap insurance!
BlackICE
GT Owner
I have researched this topic for a while because I am in the same boat as 427Aggie, wanting to hit 200+ in the mile. I have tried a 21 PSI pulley with a Gen 1 at Mojave, but because of the low air density the car was pulling less air in than a 19 PSI pulley does at sea level. Since the Mojave event now allow N2O I plan to try again with a 19 PSI and N2O.
As for the fuel pumps note that flow is related to rail pressure (which is = to pressure across the injectors + manifold pressure) doubling the rail pressure cuts flow by about sqrt(2), or 1.41. The reason that the TT at 1000 HP don't have an issue is twofold. First they don't have about an 80 to 100 HP loss turning the blower. Second that are more efficient compressors so heat the air less at an equivalent air flow. Air flow = HP! The TT push can push the same amount of air as a blower at a cooler temperature, thus less boost, pv=nRT, lower T, means lower p. Therefore for at any RWHP level a TT will require less fuel, because no crankshaft losses. Not only less fuel flow is needed by the TT, but at a lower rail pressure which increases the pump's flow capacity.
Now for what to do on a Whipple car. Fubar's system is an example of what to do when time, labor and costs are not an issue and you want the best most capable system that you can design. So those that need to be smog compliant and get inspected, Fubar's system may bring unwanted attention. I plan to use a competition Boost-A-Pump with about 60 lbs/min injectors. Many consider a BAP as a band-aid and it may be, but Torrie has shown the band-aid is good for more than 20K-30K of spirited driving and it is still stuck on! With a 19 lbs pulley and a BIG shot of nitrous I est. that a BAP with 60lbs/min injectors will be good for around 1000-1100 RWHP. Note larger injectors help a lot because they flow more at a lower rail pressure which increases the fuel pump's flow capacity.
As for the fuel pumps note that flow is related to rail pressure (which is = to pressure across the injectors + manifold pressure) doubling the rail pressure cuts flow by about sqrt(2), or 1.41. The reason that the TT at 1000 HP don't have an issue is twofold. First they don't have about an 80 to 100 HP loss turning the blower. Second that are more efficient compressors so heat the air less at an equivalent air flow. Air flow = HP! The TT push can push the same amount of air as a blower at a cooler temperature, thus less boost, pv=nRT, lower T, means lower p. Therefore for at any RWHP level a TT will require less fuel, because no crankshaft losses. Not only less fuel flow is needed by the TT, but at a lower rail pressure which increases the pump's flow capacity.
Now for what to do on a Whipple car. Fubar's system is an example of what to do when time, labor and costs are not an issue and you want the best most capable system that you can design. So those that need to be smog compliant and get inspected, Fubar's system may bring unwanted attention. I plan to use a competition Boost-A-Pump with about 60 lbs/min injectors. Many consider a BAP as a band-aid and it may be, but Torrie has shown the band-aid is good for more than 20K-30K of spirited driving and it is still stuck on! With a 19 lbs pulley and a BIG shot of nitrous I est. that a BAP with 60lbs/min injectors will be good for around 1000-1100 RWHP. Note larger injectors help a lot because they flow more at a lower rail pressure which increases the fuel pump's flow capacity.
Last edited:
Fubar
Totally ****** Up
All true, and like I have noted in the other thread, the main reason I moved away from the BAP was not because I feel the device itself is unreliable but because it simply adds one more thing in a long list that can fail (marginally) and cost big money down the road. When we removed my BAP we found that a vacuum line, used to active the BAP at +5lbs of manifold pressure was slight torn. This caused the BAP to work in an irregular fashion. I did not realize the line was torn and decided one of my fuel pumps must be acting up, which partially led to my decision to revamp the whole thing. Then we found the crimped line and the massive about of oil in the intake manifold (via the blow-by ports) and I just decided that a looped system with one pump was the way I wanted to go. The noise associated with one electric pump (that could move the amount of fuel needed) sealed the deal on the mechanical pump. However, there are still several ways to revamp the fuel system that are not as dramatic as the route I chose. You could simply add a third electric pump, outside the fuel tank, and be done. I looked at several different ways to approach this problem and decided that it didn't make sense to half-ass it, when I could over-do it. In the end, you should choose the solution that best fits your needs. At some point I would like to add a Motec ECU and use that to control traction and boost by gear (and maybe even stability control). Then I'm going with a flux capacitor and uranium fuel core.
Well teh BAP fixed the fuel problem but we aren't gaining any power. Same Dyno as my 19lb runs where I made 720. With plenty of fuel running a 21lb, making 22, and 105 octane I'm only running the same numbers I made on pump gas. I know the days may be different but what the hell.
We are now putting the GT Guys cold air kit on to see what I get. If I'm not close to 800 im not trying the mile this trip I'll just cancel because i don't want to go 199
We are now putting the GT Guys cold air kit on to see what I get. If I'm not close to 800 im not trying the mile this trip I'll just cancel because i don't want to go 199
I'm reading this correctly right: You made the same power with 22 lbs with a race gas tune that you made on 19 lbs with a pump gas tune? Did you give it any kind of ass-o-meter test?
You read that right Dave. No ass o meter yet. I'm saying **** it. Fubar loaned me his cat delete he's not using and we are putting the cold air kit on. Let's see what this does. Thank god for good guys willing to work into the night. I'll post more when we pull again
Fubar
Totally ****** Up
tmcphail
GT Owner/Vendor
We really need to see dyno sheets with AF and full OBD2 data to see what is occurring on all of the runs.
I'll get it all and post it in the next 30 min. I've talked to rich about a couple of the cars they have done and it seems we are in line with them other than I just had stock exhaust back to the accused muffler delete. Let me see if I can pull the sheets off while we replace the cats
tmcphail
GT Owner/Vendor
BlackICE
GT Owner
We are strapping her down now for the runs. It's time to see if I'm still going to try for the mile.
BlackICE
GT Owner
Yea about 2:30 but I have a good group working on it. Just did a pull 4300 and pulled over 700 so we may have done something right. It's wanting more fuel.
BlackICE
GT Owner
Great numbers! If you have the fuel to reach 6500+ it will be one of the strongest Whipple installations.
We shall see. We ate having a wired issue with the u2 sensors reading off and then the next half pull it's swaps sides of the motor. We are using a non resistor plug that was recommended with the cold air kit. So we are swapping back to a new set of ngk 6's to see what we got. Again I'm not going to be happy if we aren't at or over 800. I think that's the cushion we need to make 200. I'm hoping I don't go home disappointed tonight, morning?
BlackICE
GT Owner
Do non-resistor plugs work with the stock ECU without any electrical interference problems? I think if the you can hold 740 rwhp on during the entire run you can easily pass 200 if you don't have a headwind. The problem most face is that the air inlet temp. rise too much during the run and ECU backs off the timing so that whatever you get on the dyno is reduced by 50+ HP in the later 1/3 of the run when you need it most.
