WHIPPLE TUNES - Add on to Fubars Fuel Thread

[427Aggie]

Well as I prepare for the mile we have done some upgrades to try and push me as close to 850ish as we can so my now overweight (hey I lost 50 so far) butt can get pushed down the mile over 200.

I went back through many a post on the whipple cars and decided that the only way we get there was with a 21lb pulley and race fuel (VP109, octane 105) and just give it everything we got. In addition I have the prototype cold air kit here from Rich and Dennis and we are really hoping for about 50 more HP from this add on.

Thursday we put it on the dyno expecting to just tune it and thrash for about 30 minutes putting on the cold air kit. Well today its still sitting there. As we worked on the tune we noticed that my pumps were getting to 100% duty cycle on the pulls and we were running out of steam at 5500rpm. This was at 20deg of time.

Now I should note that my whipple is a GENI 3.4 so I'm not pushing anywhere near the volume that the GENII and 4L are.

So we decided to try one last run and measure the duty cycle of the injectors and turn them up to see where it would get us. Well it got us squat..we were already at 110%. The neat thing about the car is we had the injectors set to try and achieve 50, since there wasn't enough pressure the computer automatically backs everything down to keep it safe and wouldn't get over 30. Now here is the interesting thing and what made me post.

I have read all the old posts about 3.4's with race fuel and most seemed to be in the 800hp range. No one talks about the fuel pumps so the thought on our side was that everyone was just adding timing. My last pull was about 725hp, which is what I get on pump with a 19lb pulley, but Fisher said that we had about another 5 to 7 deg of timing to put in and thats good for 15hp on the GT. At 5 degrees I'm right where all the GT's I saw post about their 3.4's on race tune were.

Basically I wonder if all of them were running out of fuel and didn't know it. So we have a boost a pump, YES I HATE THEM BUT I"M JUST TRYING TO GET OVER 200 then it comes off, going on Monday and bigger injectors if needed so that we can tune this for 105 with the cold air kit and see what we get.

I think short of the major fuel system upgrade, as Mark has done, we have found that the limit of any upgraded supercharger is a minimum race fuel. And I know I'm going to stir some shit here but, if you look at the HP we are getting from race gas, and yes thats 100% on everything, then the SC can push about 800hp where a twin turbo car is over 1000hp. This shows we are LOOSING a minimum of 200HP from the SC to the tires.

I hate to say that Mark is right but it looks like he might have been. :ack

I let you know the final numbers Monday night when it gets tuned finally.

 

[fjpikul]

Maybe you've got the same fuel pick-up problem that Mark had? Better tear the tank apart and look for kinked hoses. Ha, ha, just kidding Aggie.

 

[Fubar]

I was right. I was right... la la la I was right.

 

[nota4re]

Aggie,

That's a great and informative post. I wanna see you get over 200MPH too and we're coming to witness it!!!

Are you running CATS? If not, you can run C16 instead of VP109 at the mile and you will get ~.4 - .6 richer tune with the C16. You're doing what we did with the TT's in that we can check/validate A/F's with the VP109 which will run about 1/2 point leaner than pump gas or the C16.

Regarding the CAI... man, it would be really interesting to see comparisons of that versus the OEM box at the mile. The dyno just can't duplicate the air flow into the car when you are at speed. My concern is that the OEM car picks up nice, cool, outside air via the ducts on the clamshell. The more speed, the more air and all at ambient temps. The "CAI" is positioned in the void behind the rear tires. Conceptually, I'm just not convinced at all that this is a better place to pull air from. Hopefully you'd be agreeable to do a back to back run which could be a definitive measure of the CAI benefits.

See you in Texas! 200 200 200 200 200 200 200!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Fubar]

Good point, I think the clamshell should be vented into the area where CAI will pickup. I suspect that Rich and Dennis left it closed so that the car could be returned to stock easily. Sense I am WAY beyond that point, I'm going to open up a channel to let cold air from the clamshell push down into that cavity behind the wheels.

 

[427Aggie]

I'll ask Rich to post the air temps that they went through figuring out what best to do. I can't remember the exact number but remember that while your getting the cold air you are in the engine compartment up against the exhaust so thats heating the box up as well.

Mark just don't cut the openings...thats carbon fiber and you don't want to know what the cost to replace it is

 

[2112]

are the TTs using a boost pump to increase fuel supply?

 

[HHGT]

There is enough room on the roof of the car between the 2 doors to inlet cold air such as this example...
http://www.autoblog.com/2005/03/01/team-rs-breaks-out-with-wrc-focus-concept/
Just needs some artistic talent and some aero-dynamics analysis.

Many other examples here...http://www.google.com/images?q=car+...de_link&ct=mode&ved=0CAkQ_AU&biw=1366&bih=594

 

[nota4re]

I'll ask Rich to post the air temps that they went through figuring out what best to do. I can't remember the exact number but remember that while your getting the cold air you are in the engine compartment up against the exhaust so thats heating the box up as well.

Yeah, the plastic OEM airbox gets hot. Less so with any of the aftermarket exhausts. But anything in the engine compartment is gonna get hot - including metal runners to a CAI.

Rich and Dennis are smart guys, no doubt did their homework. Like i said, it's hard to simulate any of this on the dyno. The OEM airbox is disadvantaged on the dyno compared to the real world and that's my concern. Repeatable back to back mile runs would be a very interesting data point.

 

[nota4re]

are the TTs using a boost pump to increase fuel supply?

The 3 Heffner's that we have done all have OEM fuel systems from pumps through injectors. All put down dyno numbers at the rear wheels of 950-1000HP. I DO think that this is about the limit for the fuel system. Jason's opinion would be better than mine. Aggie was spot-on in his observation in that the Whipple engines are likely working at this level or higher - but a lot of that power is not making its way to the rear wheels.

 

[Mullet]

With zero wind at the mile 750 whp will get your 200.

I'd be happy to make a pass or 2 in your car.

 

[427Aggie]

With zero wind at the mile 750 whp will get your 200.

I'd be happy to make a pass or 2 in your car.

Oh lord I don't need this kind of offer

I want my fat ass to go 200.

What I am saying on the fuel system is that its capable of doing 1000hp with turbo's or 800 with a whipple but thats about the limit. So by staying SC your loosing 200hp + at the wheels.

I don't disagree on the heat and Fisher and I have been discussing the issue of the low pressure area behind the wheels and how it will differ on wind velocity. I know Rich actually tested the heat driving with sensors on the car not on the dyno so he could speak better to the differentials of temperature. I think the major change over the stock airbox no matter where you put it is the increased flow of air.

 

[nota4re]

So by staying SC your loosing 200hp + at the wheels.

Yeah, I think that is right in "approximate" terms. I remember when Jason was first building Ray's car for the Car & Driver tuner shoot-out. He experimented with turbos only and turbos + SC. The TT + SC had better low-end but you had to "pay the piper" at the high end. As I understand the differences of the Heffner and Hennesey systems today, I believe the Hennesey's are running 5 or more psi above Heffner to offset the SC load. Both systems seem to work quite well.

I think the major change over the stock airbox no matter where you put it is the increased flow of air.

It would be fun to test this. I know a lot of people here would agree with you. I'm on the fence... maybe too defensive of Ford's engineering capabilities. LOL

 

[Waldo]

With the 4.0 liter Whipple, my fuel pumps hit 100% duty cycle at 6500 rpm. That's with 19 pounds of boost and tuned for 93 octane. The end result was 737 rwhp and 668 lbft of torque.

Best Regards,

 

[427Aggie]

I think we have determined that the 4L MUST have the fuel upgraded. Your making almost what I do with a 3.4L and 93 octane on 19lbs waldo.

 

[HHGT]

Yeah, I think that is right in "approximate" terms. I remember when Jason was first building Ray's car for the Car & Driver tuner shoot-out. He experimented with turbos only and turbos + SC. The TT + SC had better low-end but you had to "pay the piper" at the high end. As I understand the differences of the Heffner and Hennesey systems today, I believe the Hennesey's are running 5 or more psi above Heffner to offset the SC load. Both systems seem to work quite well.


It would be fun to test this. I know a lot of people here would agree with you. I'm on the fence... maybe too defensive of Ford's engineering capabilities. LOL

I don't know Kendall, Don Goldman said that he hit 230+ mph and 1000HP on his TTSC setup. If that is the case, how come his SC is not raping HP at the top end?

 

[ChipBeck]

Are the TTs using a boost pump to increase fuel supply?

No, my Heffner TT GT can deliver 1050 RWHP using C16 and I have my stock fuel pump. 220.1 MPH at the last Texas Mile launching my car easy and I think I was the slowest Heffner GT at that event. The SC uses a lot of HP (and gas) to drive itself, the payoff being lots of low end power at the expense of high end power.

Chip

 

[nota4re]

I don't know Kendall, Don Goldman said that he hit 230+ mph and 1000HP on his TTSC setup. If that is the case, how come his SC is not raping HP at the top end?

The SC is consuming a LOT of power on the top end.... no way around this. As for the case with the Don and the Hennesey set-up, I have no doubts... all that is needed is a little more boost from the turbos to offset the SC drag.

At the risk of over-simplifying: (All of this is approximate.)

OEM SC at 14psi = 500 RWHP
OEM SC w/pulley @ 16 psi = 600 RWHP
Whipple @ 19psi = 750 RWHP
TT @ 19psi = 950 RWHP
TTSC @ 24 psi = 950 RWHP

FYI: TT @ 12psi = 666 RWHP (Skyrex's car)

 

[Mullet]

I don't know Kendall, Don Goldman said that he hit 230+ mph and 1000HP on his TTSC setup. If that is the case, how come his SC is not raping HP at the top end?

That run was over 1 mile.

My 226.2 is the best mile run for a non built motor GT. Mine as most of you guys know is TT/SC and put down 994 rwhp and is using twin 67mm Turbos and the stock SC. My 994 hp was using 26 lbs. Of boost. Keep in mind my car was creeping up to 29 lbs. of boost on my Mile runs which means it is probably making over 1000/1050 hp on the runs.

This might be why I got a couple more mph's than the TT only cars.

 

[427Aggie]

I just think it's a really interesting discussion and we have really proven the limit of the stock duel system. There is argument that the car and motor are capable of more it's just the decision to either do a fuel system upgrade or do TT. If I really have the need for more power I will be going heffner