Halfshaft Bolt Answers (all threads merged)


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nota4re

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 15, 2006
4,207
nota4re,
The message was to make an important point when you had questioned whether I should have been commenting Ford's understanding of the problem:

The point is that I didn't make any claims at all about Ford's position, I merely acknowledged that you did. The reality is that it is the only point I may agree with you on - there's no eveidence to suggest that Ford has a solution. I wouldn't have inferred otherwise. That was the essence of my critique - Ford doesn't know what the SOLUTION is - but you do?

We differ in that I'm not gonna put my engineering prowess up against all of what Ford/Ricardo can bring tothe table and proclaim a singular solution that I only I can think of and they can't.

AMB and I discussed and agreed in December that the minute spline engagement backlash was at the core of the issue - either causing the bolts to be walked out and then sheared or even potentially to be sheared in place because of the continued stresses and resulting fatigue. When thinking about it, frankly I don't think this is too difficult of a conclusion and I have no doubt that any drivetrain engineer is on it.

The more difficult question is what kind of solution will work which involves some pretty thorough analysis/knowledge of the min/max stacked tolerances that could accumulate to be the max play in the splines. Once understood, what kind of design could work within such an environment? Maybe stronger fasteners together with one or more means to keep them in place? Maybe not.

If an attachment resolution is not viable, then likely the only alternative is to change the shaft internal to the transaxle to a more conventional attachment method (single larger bolt) potentially along with better toleranced spline engagement - although I would think that over the years the engineer's have pretty much gotten spline tolerances defined to a science. This latter, invasive repair wiould no doubt necessitate a costly replacement of the entire transaxle as Ford would not allow dealerships to go into the internals on there own.

So, Ford is no doubt motivated to see if they can come up with a viable, non-intrusive repair. This is the most economical solution for Ford and the most convenient for us, the owners. I'm sure the looming alternative is to R&R 4,000 transaxles and deal with the backlash of the expense and some very unhappy owners.

But, maybe an alternative that they haven't considered is to subcontract the new design out to GTSAVER who already seems to have a solution ready to go.
 

AZGT

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Dec 20, 2005
1,354
Scottsdale, AZ.
OK, looking at the picture, another idea. Don't know if this would work since I have not seen the other components all at once - that picture is one I took at the rally.

What if the was a "cap" over the whole works that would bolt to the two allen screws, and carry over all the way out so that it would have a lip that would be between the half-shaft and the transaxle - would have six bolt holes in it so that when the pieces were assembled it would not only have the allen bolts but also the compression between the pieces with an added six bolts to hold it.

As I think about this as I write, I guess it still doesn't stop the problem of the bolts loosening, but it starts me thinking outside the box (or the shaft in this case). Anyone have a schematic of the axle area of the transaxle?

A second idea came to mind as I was writing. What about notches in the allen bolts heads where a tab under the head could be bent up to "lock" it in place. Some type of butterfly washer?

What about something on the inside of the half shaft that would fit into the allen heads to keep them from turning?

I'm on a roll - don't know if any would work, but .......

Next.


Still thinking - what if the first "cap" idea had the pieces to hold the allen heads in place - then that piece is secured by the six half shaft bolts.
 
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STORMCAT

GT
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
May 25, 2006
7,553
Ft. Lauderdale
Analogdesigner / Jay,
I have read & understand your assessment and agree with your conclusion on the tolerance or lack of tolerance being the real problem and fatiguing what ever fasteners that are in place. A larger center bolt would have a better chance of survival in these circumstances. It appears that Ricardo uses this setup on the Lambo. BlackIce's post # 258 refers to an old Abolfaz post and has a link that shows an exploded view of the Lambo set up.

Have you thought about this solution? Instead of forcing these small bolts to contain the deflection how about replacing the solid hardened washer with a wave type spring steel type washer or plate ? The bolt would be different in two ways. The bolt would have a smooth shank in the area where it would contact the spring and may be fractionally longer.

The bolt would be screwed into the tapped shaft holes until it bottomed out. Replacing the solid washer with the spring plate or spring washer would create a small air gap and allow this minute rocking to occur and not transmit the load to the bolt. The bolts would be bottomed out and would be held in with in with a Loctite "Red". This set up would allow the drive flange to float, the bolts and spring plates would keep it from walking off the shaft. The other fixes are going to be expensive for someone ?? I have some other ideas if you want to talk. It's sad we need to spend this much time on this subject. We all now wonder if we're driving a time bomb waiting for the car to break down?? :frown Regards, Brian
 
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Beach-GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
May 8, 2006
887
Seminole Florida
It looks like the washer and bolts are just intended to be a keeper to keep the splined hub on the splined drive. If the back side of the washer were relieved for a bit of clearance, the hub could foat on the splines and rotate back and forth within the tollerance and not impart any loading to the washer or bolts. The bolts could be torqued and wired and would not get any side loading. I assume the wheel bearings take all the pull and push forces away from this hub connection. The bending in the early version washers was due to softness and burying the bolts into it. I think the design is ok with relief to keep twist load off of the washer. But I'm an Electrical Engineer.:willy
 

quick time

GT Owner
Jul 27, 2006
90
Back order on parts

My dealer in Florida checked on the back ordered parts for the transaxel and said that they are scheduled to be shipped to his dealerhip on or about 20 Januray. Has anyone else received information that the parts will be shipping soon?
 

isaakgt

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 20, 2005
691
Wilder, Idaho
OH MY GOD A NAKED HALFSHAFT :eek DOES THIS SITE HAVE NO SCRUPLES!!:biggrin GTJOEY ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ:thumbsup


Yah, I'm stupid!:confused :confused
 

AZGT

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Dec 20, 2005
1,354
Scottsdale, AZ.
Still thinking (well, kind of :biggrin )

How about a convex washer that then put spring tension on the bolts at the same time.
 

Craig

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Mar 14, 2006
174
San Diego
My dealer in Florida checked on the back ordered parts for the transaxel and said that they are scheduled to be shipped to his dealerhip on or about 20 Januray. Has anyone else received information that the parts will be shipping soon?

My Dealer, Encinitas Ford in San Diego, called Monday to say they would be shipped on or about the 22. I ordered them on Dec 28th. They called this morning to say that they have recieved them. I'm scheduled to have them replaced on Friday.

Craig
Early '05 #268
 

quick time

GT Owner
Jul 27, 2006
90
My Dealer, Encinitas Ford in San Diego, called Monday to say they would be shipped on or about the 22. I ordered them on Dec 28th. They called this morning to say that they have recieved them. I'm scheduled to have them replaced on Friday.

Craig
Early '05 #268

Thanks Craig.
 

analogdesigner

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Nov 15, 2005
949
San Clemente, CA USA
Finally, the right tree...

Still thinking (well, kind of :biggrin )

How about a convex washer that then put spring tension on the bolts at the same time.

AZGT,

You are on the right track! :thumbsup

Jay
 

analogdesigner

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Nov 15, 2005
949
San Clemente, CA USA
Want to purchase Output shaft flange...

http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=49641&postcount=281

I tried to purchase an "Output shaft flange" (part number 4851, page 308-03-1 in the 2005 Service Manual) from my local Ford dealer without any success. Can anybody suggest how to obtain one of these?

My Ford dealership has no clue, as it is shipped with the Ricardo transaxle. I may call Ricardo late tonight.

Many thanks to all for your support, as this could benefit all GT owners...

Jay
www.gtsaver.com
 
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fjpikul

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jan 4, 2006
11,512
Belleville, IL
Jay, no help from me, but I sent you a PM days ago. Frank
 

analogdesigner

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Nov 15, 2005
949
San Clemente, CA USA
Jay, no help from me, but I sent you a PM days ago. Frank

Hi Frank,

Yes, it's being taken care of.

I am stuck running three companies an one time, while Gayle is out of town for an undetermined amount of time. I will process your order ASAP, okay?

Thanks,

Jay
 
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fjpikul

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
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Jan 4, 2006
11,512
Belleville, IL
Understood. No hurry. I forgot to include the air intake rings as well. Thanks. Frank
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,361
Washington State
Just for "ha-ha's", I called Ricardo in Detroit (and found out Don down in Fla did too!) ... was directed to Tony Walsh ... asked him if Ricardo was "on this" (researching, looking for cause(s), developing a solution, consulting with Ford etc.) ... he said HE wasn't privy to any of that (and because of this and that, he couldn't speak for Ricardo anyway regardless), but, to get an answer for me he had emailed corporate in the U.K. asking for current info on the subject and he'd contact me tomorrow (Tues 1/9) with whatever he found out.

I'll post here whatever he passes to me tomorrow.

E.P.



Well ..."tomorrow" is now well past ... and no reply was made.

'Can't say I'm too awfully surprised ~~~~~~~~~

E.P.
 

ladams1

GT Owner
Jan 1, 2007
81
Central Florida
Axle problem

I DO UNDRSTAND...but I have had Ferrari's and Porsche's with MUCH more major issues that both manufacturers refused to deal with me on...so let's gicve Ford a break,

I have had two Ferraris (360 now a F430) not one problem. My Porsche which I bought in 1999 has been perfect. Hell even my Lotus has been almost perfect and that damn thing is British.

This is the first American car I have owned in 22 years. I like it but this type of stuff (almost said crap) is why I stopped buying American cars. My dealer I am sure will fix it for free but who wants aggravation, I will dump it and buy something else if it even burps.

When I bought the car it had six tolerance issues that the dealer had to fix. My Ferrari was perfect at pick up and so was my Lotus.

I like the Ford dealership. They have been very good to me. Nice people!

I noticed that the ford service dept is always busy with alot of workman stalls. When I take my Toyota in they never seem to be working on anything. It really frosts me if this turns out to be a problem.

I have a contact in Ford GT engineering. He is the project manager for the Ford GT program. I sent Ford a 6 page technical letter comparing the FGT with cars I own now, have owned or was looking to buy when I was looking at the FGT. Good and bad points plus some design flaws on the vehicle. Some of the vehicles I own (13 total) were their "to be better than" targets. The 360 Modena that I had before buying the F430 was of particular interest to them. They called me from Detroit and I talked with him and some of their engineering directors on speaker phone. I was World Wide VP of engineering for an fortune 10 company so we had a great talk. I may call him to see what he says if he is still employed. I enjoyed the conversation with the Ford engineers and they were justifiably proud of the FGT accomplishment. I hate to see this happen to Ford at this time. It is unfortunatly "nut and bolt" calculations.

By the way the FGT is a magnificent car! When I bought it I was close to buying the 603 hp Porsche Gt or a F40/F50. The FGT impressed me and still does!

Lee
 

fjpikul

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jan 4, 2006
11,512
Belleville, IL
Lee, most of the GT team engineers were reassigned to SVT projects. Some of the techs lost their jobs. The guys you want to talk to are still there.
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
I have had two Ferraris (360 now a F430) not one problem. My Porsche which I bought in 1999 has been perfect. Hell even my Lotus has been almost perfect and that damn thing is British.

This is the first American car I have owned in 22 years. I like it but this type of stuff (almost said crap) is why I stopped buying American cars. My dealer I am sure will fix it for free but who wants aggravation, I will dump it and buy something else if it even burps.

When I bought the car it had six tolerance issues that the dealer had to fix. My Ferrari was perfect at pick up and so was my Lotus.

I like the Ford dealership. They have been very good to me. Nice people!

I noticed that the ford service dept is always busy with alot of workman stalls. When I take my Toyota in they never seem to be working on anything. It really frosts me if this turns out to be a problem.

I have a contact in Ford GT engineering. He is the project manager for the Ford GT program. I sent Ford a 6 page technical letter comparing the FGT with cars I own now, have owned or was looking to buy when I was looking at the FGT. Good and bad points plus some design flaws on the vehicle. Some of the vehicles I own (13 total) were their "to be better than" targets. The 360 Modena that I had before buying the F430 was of particular interest to them. They called me from Detroit and I talked with him and some of their engineering directors on speaker phone. I was World Wide VP of engineering for an fortune 10 company so we had a great talk. I may call him to see what he says if he is still employed. I enjoyed the conversation with the Ford engineers and they were justifiably proud of the FGT accomplishment. I hate to see this happen to Ford at this time. It is unfortunatly "nut and bolt" calculations.

By the way the FGT is a magnificent car! When I bought it I was close to buying the 603 hp Porsche Gt or a F40/F50. The FGT impressed me and still does!

Lee


Lee, have you tried to get warranty service, or normal scheduled service at FERRARI OF SAN FRANCISCO. Nothing like beint told that 50 cars are in front of you and be advised that you appointment is in five weeks and they need the car for two weeks... yup, no problem at all.
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Lee, have you tried to get warranty service, or normal scheduled service at FERRARI OF SAN FRANCISCO. Nothing like beint told that 50 cars are in front of you and be advised that you appointment is in five weeks and they need the car for two weeks... yup, no problem at all.
My experience on the sales side was much the same. This and now the service level are two good reasons why I will probably never own a Ferrari.:thumbsdow

I get the royal treatment at my local Ford dealer!:thumbsup
 

sawb

GT Owner
Sep 8, 2006
17
axle bolts

there is now a broadcast message about broken axle bolts.if you want a copy contact me.
 
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