Fast Freddy
GPS'D 225 MPH
BM SoCal
GT Owner
Anything that immediately gets replaced with something "better" isn't so collectable. Viper, Corvette in this category. On the positive side they'll depreciate faster and longer and can be great buys for what you're laying out. Limited production of GT and Carrera GT (and the slr to a degree) make them stand out in my book. Viper's iconic styling puts it 4th in group with Corvette's only plus it's great (but common) engine. Great car yes. Special no.
Luke Warmwater
Permanent Vacation
Is the Ford GT really considered to be a limited build car? ~4000 units doesn't seem to be very limited is it? I think the GT is a very special car for reasons that don't apply to very many other cars but limited build isn't one if them. I was back east in rural Indiana over the holidays and saw a very sharp red ZR1 sitting outside right on main street getting blasted by snow plows all week. It may be collector someday but right now dealers just want them gone. I wanted to stop in and ask them why they would subject such a car to such harsh conditions...
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Kingman
GT Owner
There is a huge new market coming up to speed where 4000 units does not come close to satiating - China.
Luke Warmwater
Permanent Vacation
Not the way it works there. Rather, they buy a couple and hack them up so they can make copies for one tenth current market price.
Luke Warmwater
Permanent Vacation
Relative to what? Having a GT I wish nothing more than the values to sky rocket. That said, what other 4k unit build car has come close to holding it's value let alone appreciate? GTs will hold their value not because they are limited build but rather because there is no "newer better" replacement currently available now or in the near future. When battery technology catches up, all bets are off.
Most Ford Dealers never got one.
Luke,
With probably 500+ of the 4038 destroyed and 600+ that have left the United States, there are probably only 2500 to 2900 Ford GTs left in the country. There are nearly that many 1966 GT350 Shelby Mustangs. I don't exactly bump into a Ford GT everytime I walk into a parking lot. 10 years from now several hundred more will be gone. There were more Ford Dealers than Ford GTs built and the majority of Ford Dealers did not get a single GT during the 2 year production run! Many dealers begged for one and could not get a single GT. For a mass market maker like Ford, a production run of 4038 of a totally unique platform is extremely limited.
I have never met a Ford fan who did not wish he owned a Ford GT.
Chip
Luke,
With probably 500+ of the 4038 destroyed and 600+ that have left the United States, there are probably only 2500 to 2900 Ford GTs left in the country. There are nearly that many 1966 GT350 Shelby Mustangs. I don't exactly bump into a Ford GT everytime I walk into a parking lot. 10 years from now several hundred more will be gone. There were more Ford Dealers than Ford GTs built and the majority of Ford Dealers did not get a single GT during the 2 year production run! Many dealers begged for one and could not get a single GT. For a mass market maker like Ford, a production run of 4038 of a totally unique platform is extremely limited.
I have never met a Ford fan who did not wish he owned a Ford GT.
Chip
2112
Blue/white 06'
From Ford, a Boss 302 of which 7,000 + were made and they now sell for 10 times the original price.
BMW Z8
1960's Shelby Mustangs. Old big block Corvettes. There are "newer better replacements currently available now" but that has not devalued the prices of the old classics. Collector cars are emotional purchases. History, heritage, race victorys, beauty, desire, rarity, sound, and soul are more important than shaving a few 1/10s off a 0-60 or lap time when it comes to stoking an enthusiasts desire for a particular model. The Ford GT contains all of those factors in spades. It is a fluke not likely to be repeated. And if a new Mustang is produced that betters the GTs performance and handling (they are getting close now), they will not hurt the GTs value a bit. That's my take on it.
Chip
:confused Are you saying that Ford GT owners are impatiently waiting for the day when we can trade them for fast electric cars? :confused
fastzilla
Where's reverse?
Not trying to bust anyone's chops but over 1000 cars per year and you fall into the "production" category in my book. While the article is interesting and ego stroking for us GT owners of 10 future collectible cars the list covered all 3 American super cars - on a global scene it's doubtful the American cars would even make the list let alone all 3 on the same list - it was almost a consolation or obligatory inclusion. Where is the Murcialago LP670-4 SV, 1999 Diablo SV (Last of the Lambo engine - not Audi & still selling for more than the price of a FGT), Mercedes SLR 722, etc., etc.
Then he listed the Reventon, 1 of 20 production, now he jumped to an entirely different class of "collectible" that unfortunately the only cars on the list that would even come close to are the Enzo & more closely the F1 - I believe the Enzo will not appreciate as much as the other 2. Sorry guys, it's like comparing the value of a platinum bar to silver - they are the same weight but the platinum will always be worth exponentially more.
I do agree with the FGT (not because of this board) as I feel the world feels the same way about the car & like my previous posts I feel mainly related to the car's heritage. For without it I think it would not rate so highly (ex: ZR1). Even Ferrari resurrected the "GTO" on the new 599 after 27'ish years! I'd say heritage plays a HUGE part in car collectivity & value in general.
I do agree with the McLaren F1 - that will be the one that will be the $30M car in the future. The original GT40's can be had for under $1M - out of what, 126 total production, I'd say we've hit the limit of the car's value. For reference, the F1 has very similar production numbers, give them another 25 years to equal the 40 yr old GT-40 and see the value percentages. For me I will consider it one of my greatest achievements if & when I ever own an F1. Unfortunately I feel I am 10 years behind the curve to buy that car.
I maintain that a car has to be out of production to really achieve the collector status. Otherwise how will you ever know how "rare" or "limited production" the car will ever be? Hurst edition Challengers, GT500KR's, etc. Look at any classic car auction and very rarely do these limited editions fetch more than a 10-20% premium over the standard car (GT500 vs GT500KR) by today's economy. Turn back the clock to 1999 or 2006 if you want to quote "bubble" prices. $120k Hemi-anythings....yeah right.
For example, everyone on the board now knows I have a Lotus Esprit. They made under 11,000 of them over 27 years - an average of 400 cars per year (88, 89 & 90 had almost 1000 cars built each year while 2004 had only 40 cars built) - basically there were more Ford GTs produced in 2 years then there wore Lotus Esprits in the last 15 years of their production of which there were only 1500 V8's ever produced. More GT's than all the Ferrari "F" (F40, F50, F60/Enzo) series cars combined.
Aston Martin's flagship (Still to this day & is still the fastest AM ever produced) is the Vanquish S. A total production run of under 2600 for the 8 year production of 2001-2007. Of the "S" models less than 600 exist (S model `04-`07 is vastly different then the non-S) - `01 & `07 model not sold in US.
The list goes on & on.
For "limited production" I say it's point of view. The H2 my wife drives is "limited production" - it's the "limited edition" (said so on the window sticker) & only the LE's were available in that color with those trim options.
As for "rare", again, you can still easily break you FGT shopping down by, color, stripes, mods, miles & location. There seem to be 30-50 for sale at any given time. Research some of the above mentioned cars - see how slim your pickings become. Even broaden your search globally and you will still have slim pickings.
I hope my opinion does not get me banned - 4038 cars with NO difference other than color over 2 years. I say think goodness for the buyers like me. Go shop for a white Porsche Carrera GT, let me know how many you find & where they are located.
Of course I'm speaking on a global scale. Now if we are sticking strictly to American cars then the FGT is very limited. There are around 600 Viper ACRs over a 3 year run & you can shop them by color, miles, modifications, etc.
Time & morons (wrecked cars) will increase the value & collectibility of our FGTs.
Not trying to be a Dr. Harms - I bought my FGT to enjoy & collect. Sometimes facts are ugly.
Off Topic:
Just read an article in this month's "0-60" magazine titled "How To Steal a Ferrari" - interesting read & buyer beware buying cars out of certain countries!!!
Then he listed the Reventon, 1 of 20 production, now he jumped to an entirely different class of "collectible" that unfortunately the only cars on the list that would even come close to are the Enzo & more closely the F1 - I believe the Enzo will not appreciate as much as the other 2. Sorry guys, it's like comparing the value of a platinum bar to silver - they are the same weight but the platinum will always be worth exponentially more.
I do agree with the FGT (not because of this board) as I feel the world feels the same way about the car & like my previous posts I feel mainly related to the car's heritage. For without it I think it would not rate so highly (ex: ZR1). Even Ferrari resurrected the "GTO" on the new 599 after 27'ish years! I'd say heritage plays a HUGE part in car collectivity & value in general.
I do agree with the McLaren F1 - that will be the one that will be the $30M car in the future. The original GT40's can be had for under $1M - out of what, 126 total production, I'd say we've hit the limit of the car's value. For reference, the F1 has very similar production numbers, give them another 25 years to equal the 40 yr old GT-40 and see the value percentages. For me I will consider it one of my greatest achievements if & when I ever own an F1. Unfortunately I feel I am 10 years behind the curve to buy that car.
I maintain that a car has to be out of production to really achieve the collector status. Otherwise how will you ever know how "rare" or "limited production" the car will ever be? Hurst edition Challengers, GT500KR's, etc. Look at any classic car auction and very rarely do these limited editions fetch more than a 10-20% premium over the standard car (GT500 vs GT500KR) by today's economy. Turn back the clock to 1999 or 2006 if you want to quote "bubble" prices. $120k Hemi-anythings....yeah right.
For example, everyone on the board now knows I have a Lotus Esprit. They made under 11,000 of them over 27 years - an average of 400 cars per year (88, 89 & 90 had almost 1000 cars built each year while 2004 had only 40 cars built) - basically there were more Ford GTs produced in 2 years then there wore Lotus Esprits in the last 15 years of their production of which there were only 1500 V8's ever produced. More GT's than all the Ferrari "F" (F40, F50, F60/Enzo) series cars combined.
Aston Martin's flagship (Still to this day & is still the fastest AM ever produced) is the Vanquish S. A total production run of under 2600 for the 8 year production of 2001-2007. Of the "S" models less than 600 exist (S model `04-`07 is vastly different then the non-S) - `01 & `07 model not sold in US.
The list goes on & on.
For "limited production" I say it's point of view. The H2 my wife drives is "limited production" - it's the "limited edition" (said so on the window sticker) & only the LE's were available in that color with those trim options.
As for "rare", again, you can still easily break you FGT shopping down by, color, stripes, mods, miles & location. There seem to be 30-50 for sale at any given time. Research some of the above mentioned cars - see how slim your pickings become. Even broaden your search globally and you will still have slim pickings.
I hope my opinion does not get me banned - 4038 cars with NO difference other than color over 2 years. I say think goodness for the buyers like me. Go shop for a white Porsche Carrera GT, let me know how many you find & where they are located.
Of course I'm speaking on a global scale. Now if we are sticking strictly to American cars then the FGT is very limited. There are around 600 Viper ACRs over a 3 year run & you can shop them by color, miles, modifications, etc.
Time & morons (wrecked cars) will increase the value & collectibility of our FGTs.
Not trying to be a Dr. Harms - I bought my FGT to enjoy & collect. Sometimes facts are ugly.
Off Topic:
Just read an article in this month's "0-60" magazine titled "How To Steal a Ferrari" - interesting read & buyer beware buying cars out of certain countries!!!
fastzilla
Where's reverse?
For consideration:
1970 Boss 302 Mustang - $3750
1970 6-Pack 12oz Coke - $0.65
2010 - Boss 302 Mustang - $25-30k
2010 6-Pack 12oz Coke - $3.00-$3.50 ($3.25)
% increase -
1970 Boss 302 - 800% (at $30k 2010 price)
6-Pack 12oz Coke - 500%
Conclusion -
Accounting for inflation a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang will return you $3750-$7500 more for owning the car for the last 40 years. Thechnically doubling or trippling your investment (purchase price only) over 40 years. Being paid $750/yr to own a car ain't bad when you factor in the emotions of it all. It's no different than putting $3750 in the bank at 5.25% interest over 40 years. Much more fun to enjoy/drive your investment!!!!
1970 Boss 302 Mustang - $3750
1970 6-Pack 12oz Coke - $0.65
2010 - Boss 302 Mustang - $25-30k
2010 6-Pack 12oz Coke - $3.00-$3.50 ($3.25)
% increase -
1970 Boss 302 - 800% (at $30k 2010 price)
6-Pack 12oz Coke - 500%
Conclusion -
Accounting for inflation a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang will return you $3750-$7500 more for owning the car for the last 40 years. Thechnically doubling or trippling your investment (purchase price only) over 40 years. Being paid $750/yr to own a car ain't bad when you factor in the emotions of it all. It's no different than putting $3750 in the bank at 5.25% interest over 40 years. Much more fun to enjoy/drive your investment!!!!
Future potential moron.
I wouldn't define rarity by how many of a model is produced "per year" nor do I think 11,000 Esprits over 27 years makes it rarer than 4038 GTs produced over 2 years. If Ford made the 4038 cars over 4 years would it be twice as rare? If all 4038 were produced in one year would it be twice as common? The Lotus Esprit is not in the same league as the FGT and rarity has nothing to do with it. For 8 years I sold and serviced every single Lotus Esprit in Arizona as I was the state's sole Lotus Dealer. The biggest difficulty selling them was their horrible resale and abysmal reliability. Every single Lotus sale was an uphill slog because 50% first year depreciation was not uncommon and every owner was on a first name basis with our Lotus tech. Even if only 900 Esprits were produced over 27 years they would never be as desirable or valuable as the FGT because they are trouble prone and were/are far less popular. Buy just about any new V-12 Aston Martin and no matter how fast it accelerates, it'll depreciate even faster. My FGT never had a single warranty repair, I've replaced one gauge since it's been out of warranty, and it's worth as much today as I paid for it 5 years ago.
I think your analysis greatly overvalues rarity and under values desirability in ranking collector cars. Your opinion will not get you banned here. But referring to the 50 to 100 of our members who have wrecked their GTs as "morons" won't win you any awards either. With my limited skills and the great enjoyment I get driving my GT on the track, I might wreck mine someday and join those ranks of morons. :bored
Chip
I wouldn't define rarity by how many of a model is produced "per year" nor do I think 11,000 Esprits over 27 years makes it rarer than 4038 GTs produced over 2 years. If Ford made the 4038 cars over 4 years would it be twice as rare? If all 4038 were produced in one year would it be twice as common? The Lotus Esprit is not in the same league as the FGT and rarity has nothing to do with it. For 8 years I sold and serviced every single Lotus Esprit in Arizona as I was the state's sole Lotus Dealer. The biggest difficulty selling them was their horrible resale and abysmal reliability. Every single Lotus sale was an uphill slog because 50% first year depreciation was not uncommon and every owner was on a first name basis with our Lotus tech. Even if only 900 Esprits were produced over 27 years they would never be as desirable or valuable as the FGT because they are trouble prone and were/are far less popular. Buy just about any new V-12 Aston Martin and no matter how fast it accelerates, it'll depreciate even faster. My FGT never had a single warranty repair, I've replaced one gauge since it's been out of warranty, and it's worth as much today as I paid for it 5 years ago.
I think your analysis greatly overvalues rarity and under values desirability in ranking collector cars. Your opinion will not get you banned here. But referring to the 50 to 100 of our members who have wrecked their GTs as "morons" won't win you any awards either. With my limited skills and the great enjoyment I get driving my GT on the track, I might wreck mine someday and join those ranks of morons. :bored
Chip
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GTdrummer
GT Owner
There probably are 30-40 or so GTs for sale at a given time. Last year I would put that number at 50 plus. Not a week goes by now that I don't get an email from an exotic dealer trying to buy one of my GTs --I can't say that about any other car in have owned . Sports Car Market magazine gives the GT its highest collectibility rating which it does not throw around loosely .
I couldn't follow the point on Viper ACRs. I do know there are still 09s languishing on dealers lots and being deeply discounted. Hell, i have 1 of 32 2010 Final Edition Vipers that stayed in the US and there are 3 or 4 of those still for sale.
The Lotus Esprit?? Huh???
I suspect someone like Shelby could weigh in on how it is getting harder and harder to find good GTs. On the issue of wrecked exotics there is some Darwinism involved but I know some very talented drivers who have totaled cars so I would not make a blanket indictment of those who have had such misfortune.
I couldn't follow the point on Viper ACRs. I do know there are still 09s languishing on dealers lots and being deeply discounted. Hell, i have 1 of 32 2010 Final Edition Vipers that stayed in the US and there are 3 or 4 of those still for sale.
The Lotus Esprit?? Huh???
I suspect someone like Shelby could weigh in on how it is getting harder and harder to find good GTs. On the issue of wrecked exotics there is some Darwinism involved but I know some very talented drivers who have totaled cars so I would not make a blanket indictment of those who have had such misfortune.
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cobrajeff
GT Owner
There are no "real" decent BOSS 302s available in 2010 for $25-$30k - a clone, yes, but not a real one. Just a couple years ago, a nice one would bring $70k - they'll be back up there when the economy turns around.
14,000 Shelby Mustangs built in the sixties - sold for $3k-$5k new; sold for $100k-$250k in recent times. 4,038 GTs is a pretty limited production run - still bringing sticker price for ultra low-mile unmolested cars, five years after the last one came down the line (even original Shelby Cobras didn't hold their near-term value that well).
No one should buy a car as an "investment", but, a new Ford GT is a great car to enjoy, that is not going to depreciate dramatically anytime soon, even if you decide to put miles on it. just my .02 cents
Jeff
14,000 Shelby Mustangs built in the sixties - sold for $3k-$5k new; sold for $100k-$250k in recent times. 4,038 GTs is a pretty limited production run - still bringing sticker price for ultra low-mile unmolested cars, five years after the last one came down the line (even original Shelby Cobras didn't hold their near-term value that well).
No one should buy a car as an "investment", but, a new Ford GT is a great car to enjoy, that is not going to depreciate dramatically anytime soon, even if you decide to put miles on it. just my .02 cents
Jeff
Collectability is in direct relationship to desirability.
Supply and demand.
The reason the porsche gt lost value is because not enough people wanted one badly enough.
Doesn't matter if you build one of something, it is valueless if no one wants one.
It has been my observation that America dictates what a car is worth and Americans LOVE their cars.
Point in hand is viper which initially held its value well.
Z8 Bmw. Production #'s similar to the GT.
It was a super special car. I owned one and sold it to buy a gt.
It had all the specs except for one. NOT AMERICAN.
It depreciated to its plateau.
Why did I buy a GT. Given the viper experience in value and the realization that America dicatates the price of resale
and the fact it is a special car given a 2 year limited production run, performance and heritage.
The fact these other cars like the ZR1 and viper hit the list is because they are American.
Barrett Jackson auctions more American cars than anything else and proves the point.
How many porsches or ferrari's in comparison get the crowed so excited and fetch great prices.
Fastzilla, your post is analytical BUT as I told a brialliant uncle of mine PE indexes and future ventures in companies do not infuence value of stocks but more important it is perception. Psychology is a better tool than math and science in these issues because ultimately people buy things and if they don't see what you see you are out of phase.
Supply and demand.
The reason the porsche gt lost value is because not enough people wanted one badly enough.
Doesn't matter if you build one of something, it is valueless if no one wants one.
It has been my observation that America dictates what a car is worth and Americans LOVE their cars.
Point in hand is viper which initially held its value well.
Z8 Bmw. Production #'s similar to the GT.
It was a super special car. I owned one and sold it to buy a gt.
It had all the specs except for one. NOT AMERICAN.
It depreciated to its plateau.
Why did I buy a GT. Given the viper experience in value and the realization that America dicatates the price of resale
and the fact it is a special car given a 2 year limited production run, performance and heritage.
The fact these other cars like the ZR1 and viper hit the list is because they are American.
Barrett Jackson auctions more American cars than anything else and proves the point.
How many porsches or ferrari's in comparison get the crowed so excited and fetch great prices.
Fastzilla, your post is analytical BUT as I told a brialliant uncle of mine PE indexes and future ventures in companies do not infuence value of stocks but more important it is perception. Psychology is a better tool than math and science in these issues because ultimately people buy things and if they don't see what you see you are out of phase.
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Luke Warmwater
Permanent Vacation
Over a cold Dog Fish 90 minute... No lol
I love the GT I and I think it's value will one day climb but not because it's a rare car relatively speaking.
Chip, I think when battery technology catches up and really fast, simple, and yes, even clean cars are being produced, there are going to be many performance cars today that will simply end up on the scrap heap. I don't think the GT will be one of them and believe when that era arrives and it may be sooner than later, the cream of automobiles will be separated and only the true collector cars will be sought after. I could be all wrong but i believe the world in 30 years is going to be a very different place than what it is today.
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