loose control under acceleration?


skyrex

FORD GT OWNER
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 11, 2008
2,115
Lake Las Vegas, Henderson, NV
Take my reply for what it is and realize that it is not aimed at all the responses on this thread. First of all, and I mean this in the nicest way, it is complete bull$#&t that only inexperienced drivers who have too much money and minimal experience can wreck their GT. I have over 14,000 miles put in between both my GT's.......and as most people can tell you who know me most of them are for full effect. I progressed through a variety of high horsepower modified cars before I went to my GT as well as progressing through the different power mods that are available. (Stock, pulley/tune, TT) My wreck had little to do with experience as much as it did with road conditions and the tight two lane where my car stepped out. Honestly I have recovered from worse in the past, there was just no real time where my accident occurred. I want to meet the "experienced" driver who had learned how to stop a car sliding across grass. Believe me when I tell you that you are along for the ride until the momentum stops or is stopped.

I always encourage people to share their experiences with what happens when they have an accident as people can learn from it and I completely shared mine. However I understand now more than ever why people do not share them reading some of the responses here. I never thought the GT was hard to drive, especially compared to some of my other cars, and never understood how so many got wrecked.......until I was pulling myself out of my totaled car. It sucked and I shared it to try to help others learn. Real drivers are going to have an incident at some point. It can happen to anyone. That does not mean you should stop enjoying your car as you see fit. It just means understand that when you are not in a controlled environment like a track or runway.....and even sometimes when you are....things can happen. Debris can be on the road, other drivers can be morons and then you too can be getting out or your wrecked car. I hope that never happens, but if it does don't feel bad about yourself. A lot of great drivers have had accidents.
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
If you wanna slide in a straight line...

All split second reactions as well right so if it's not close to instinctual your already toast.
Yep, it's already been said but experience wins the race every time. I've been passed by drivers in inferior cars but not by inferior drivers.
 

Luke Warmwater

Permanent Vacation
Jul 29, 2009
1,414
Boondocks, Colorado
Yep, it's already been said but experience wins the race every time. I've been passed by drivers in inferior cars but not by inferior drivers.
I say as someone who raced pro MX/SX for years and now does dumb things on a sled and has had the chit knocked out of me more times than I remember, no pun intended, you have to find the limits before you can figure out how to deal with them. Even then with all the talent in the world, you're still gonna go ass over tea kettle on occasion. If that's not on your roadmap then settle down Beavis when you slide behind the wheel of a car like the GT.
 
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twobjshelbys

GT Owner
Jul 26, 2010
6,063
Las Vegas, NV
 

Luke Warmwater

Permanent Vacation
Jul 29, 2009
1,414
Boondocks, Colorado
You can't fix stupid...
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 13, 2006
5,773
Scottsdale, Arizona
See mid engine wipeouts on YouTube.

Almost all are easing off power on crest of turn or crown.

Steve,

I thought this was all BS too until a track session at VIR 2 years ago. Even with super stickey Hoosier R-6s warmed up I lifted off the throttle during a slight right hand bend (only about 10 degrees and I did not touch the brakes) at about 140 MPH and the ass end of my GT came around so fast it was mind blowing. Mentally I immediately wrote my car off and as I left the track sideways at well over 100 MPH I hammered the brakes hoping my car would continue pretty straight and stay away from all the concrete barriers. A complete 360 that consumed about 300+ yards across wet grass and I was able to steer out of it. Miraculously, I didn't hit anything but that was pure luck. When a GT gets away from you, it happens at warp speed.

Chip
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,361
Washington State


Someone should have informed him that his new Lambo has faaaaaaaaar more h.p. than, and is therefore far QUICKER than his Frito-Lay truck, huh.
 

Chris A.

GT #32
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 6, 2007
1,233
Ortega Mountain, CA
Nice post, as usual, skyrex.
 

jbyrnes

FORD GT OWNER
Mark II Lifetime
Jun 13, 2006
224
Louisville CO
I think it was Fittapaldi who, when asked to drive for an upcoming race, said only if they can supply him with three cars 'cause he knew he was going to wreck two of them learning the limits of the car and the course.
 

f4udriver

GT Owner
May 9, 2011
49
Springfield, Il.
I have owned my GT for only 200 miles but I have already had it get a little sideways on me, about 200 feet before turning into my driveway to put it away for the winter. I let off and it corrected pretty easily. But I have been watching this issue and it does seem like there may be some evidence that the GT has a greater preponderance to lose control then some other mid engine cars. The videos of the cars spinning on the race track scare the living CR@p out of me.

I have owned many mid engine cars Countach, Testarossa, Mondial, 308Gti, Turbo Esprit, and 2 extreme examples, McLaren M6BGT replica 1900 pounds with 700 HP on a real Lola T-70 suspension, and my current Mosler with 820 HP and 2400 pounds curb weight. The Mosler also has a triple disc clutch with a 12 pound flywheel and it will go to red line in a split second even running Hoosier A-6's. I am very hard on the Mosler and it always corrects easily when the rear end moves while the tires are spinning. None of the other cars have given me any reason to question this issue except the M6BGT which was just scary every time I drove it, mostly due to the older tires.

I do not think other cars have so many spin related accidents as compared to total production. I have not heard any issues being discussed on the Lamborghini forum or in speaking with the other Mosler owners.

I love the GT, it is a great car, but I do not plan on thrashing it like I do the Mosler until I am satisfied it is not a type specific problem with this car. Seeing so many experienced owners having this issue does lead one to think that there is an issue that needs to be looked into.

With the airplanes that I fly we call these issues "dark corners". These are areas we stay away from at all costs. But with airplanes we know not to go below a certain well defined speeds, or pull too many G's at a speed, or have the nose pointed down below a certain altitude. It would be nice if there was a definition of the dark corner so I could stay away from it. Hopefully I will test it out at the airport ramp this spring.

(Not saying it is a design problem I will just be super careful)
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,361
Washington State
I have owned my GT for only 200 miles but I have already had it get a little sideways on me, about 200 feet before turning into my driveway to put it away for the winter. I let off and it corrected pretty easily. But I have been watching this issue and it does seem like there may be some evidence that the GT has a greater preponderance to lose control then some other mid engine cars. The videos of the cars spinning on the race track scare the living CR@p out of me.

I have owned many mid engine cars Countach, Testarossa, Mondial, 308Gti, Turbo Esprit, and 2 extreme examples, McLaren M6BGT replica 1900 pounds with 700 HP on a real Lola T-70 suspension, and my current Mosler with 820 HP and 2400 pounds curb weight. The Mosler also has a triple disc clutch with a 12 pound flywheel and it will go to red line in a split second even running Hoosier A-6's. I am very hard on the Mosler and it always corrects easily when the rear end moves while the tires are spinning. None of the other cars have given me any reason to question this issue except the M6BGT which was just scary every time I drove it, mostly due to the older tires.

I do not think other cars have so many spin related accidents as compared to total production. I have not heard any issues being discussed on the Lamborghini forum or in speaking with the other Mosler owners.

I love the GT, it is a great car, but I do not plan on thrashing it like I do the Mosler until I am satisfied it is not a type specific problem with this car. Seeing so many experienced owners having this issue does lead one to think that there is an issue that needs to be looked into.

With the airplanes that I fly we call these issues "dark corners". These are areas we stay away from at all costs. But with airplanes we know not to go below a certain well defined speeds, or pull too many G's at a speed, or have the nose pointed down below a certain altitude. It would be nice if there was a definition of the dark corner so I could stay away from it. Hopefully I will test it out at the airport ramp this spring.

(Not saying it is a design problem I will just be super careful)

'Very interesting perspective...
 

cobra498

GT Owner
Jul 14, 2010
310
Central Ca;ifornia
I have owned my GT for only 200 miles but I have already had it get a little sideways on me, about 200 feet before turning into my driveway to put it away for the winter. I let off and it corrected pretty easily. But I have been watching this issue and it does seem like there may be some evidence that the GT has a greater preponderance to lose control then some other mid engine cars. The videos of the cars spinning on the race track scare the living CR@p out of me.

I have owned many mid engine cars Countach, Testarossa, Mondial, 308Gti, Turbo Esprit, and 2 extreme examples, McLaren M6BGT replica 1900 pounds with 700 HP on a real Lola T-70 suspension, and my current Mosler with 820 HP and 2400 pounds curb weight. The Mosler also has a triple disc clutch with a 12 pound flywheel and it will go to red line in a split second even running Hoosier A-6's. I am very hard on the Mosler and it always corrects easily when the rear end moves while the tires are spinning. None of the other cars have given me any reason to question this issue except the M6BGT which was just scary every time I drove it, mostly due to the older tires.

I do not think other cars have so many spin related accidents as compared to total production. I have not heard any issues being discussed on the Lamborghini forum or in speaking with the other Mosler owners.

I love the GT, it is a great car, but I do not plan on thrashing it like I do the Mosler until I am satisfied it is not a type specific problem with this car. Seeing so many experienced owners having this issue does lead one to think that there is an issue that needs to be looked into.

With the airplanes that I fly we call these issues "dark corners". These are areas we stay away from at all costs. But with airplanes we know not to go below a certain well defined speeds, or pull too many G's at a speed, or have the nose pointed down below a certain altitude. It would be nice if there was a definition of the dark corner so I could stay away from it. Hopefully I will test it out at the airport ramp this spring.

(Not saying it is a design problem I will just be super careful)

The Ford GT was designed with geometric features to minimize over steer accidents, it has roll under steer built into the suspension geometry, ridiculously small front tires and spring rates that promote under steer. These things push like pigs in almost all situations, Mark McGowan can verify that if you don't believe me. The exception is when the rear tires are spinning at a rate way beyond road speed then the slightest resistance from the front will send it spinning off the road because there is No Rear Traction in any direction. The cause of the loss in rear traction could be throttle angle, ice, sand, water etc. but the result will not be good if road camber, steering angle or a multitude of other conditions are present. I agree this can happen to the most expert of drivers but usually does not, it is usually the drivers that don't recognize the feel of the rear tires breaking traction in time to react.

I changed my spring rates from 200 lb/" front to 450 lb/" and rear from 280 lb/" to 700 lb/", I also changed the rear toe curve to eliminate 60% of the roll under steer and increased the front tires size from 235 to 265 and now the car is very responsive but a little on the twitchy side. The point is, the car is very driver friendly as designed but not all that good in terms of responsiveness because they wanted it that way. If the car had 4 wheel drive or stability control or even traction control or less power it would be less prone to these issues but then it would not be a Ford GT it would be a GTR. The engine makes lots of torque low in the power band and can spin the tires with ease if the driver lets it. The key is not to let it bite you in a situation you are not sure about, especially on public roads.
 

2112

Blue/white 06'
Mark II Lifetime
f4udriver,

Have you replaced your goodyears yet? Made a huge difference for me and it sounds like we drive our cars similarly.
 

MoTeC Magic

Spectator
Aug 21, 2009
99
Dallas, TX
The Ford GT was designed with geometric features to minimize over steer accidents, it has roll under steer built into the suspension geometry, ridiculously small front tires and spring rates that promote under steer. These things push like pigs in almost all situations, Mark McGowan can verify that if you don't believe me. The exception is when the rear tires are spinning at a rate way beyond road speed then the slightest resistance from the front will send it spinning off the road because there is No Rear Traction in any direction. The cause of the loss in rear traction could be throttle angle, ice, sand, water etc. but the result will not be good if road camber, steering angle or a multitude of other conditions are present. I agree this can happen to the most expert of drivers but usually does not, it is usually the drivers that don't recognize the feel of the rear tires breaking traction in time to react.

I changed my spring rates from 200 lb/" front to 450 lb/" and rear from 280 lb/" to 700 lb/", I also changed the rear toe curve to eliminate 60% of the roll under steer and increased the front tires size from 235 to 265 and now the car is very responsive but a little on the twitchy side. The point is, the car is very driver friendly as designed but not all that good in terms of responsiveness because they wanted it that way. If the car had 4 wheel drive or stability control or even traction control or less power it would be less prone to these issues but then it would not be a Ford GT it would be a GTR. The engine makes lots of torque low in the power band and can spin the tires with ease if the driver lets it. The key is not to let it bite you in a situation you are not sure about, especially on public roads.


Hi Guys

I believe this to be a very accurate statement. 99.9% of road cars are designed to under steer.

I was asked to comment on this subject…
In my opinion:

The issue with the GT is not an "issue" with the GT. It is the same with any high performance car. Yes the GT has a mid-engine platform that helps center the mass and CG of the car... the closer the mass of the car is centrally located, then the less rotational inertial the car has. This means it will turn better. This also means it will spin about its axis better. Much like an ice skater that has their arms out while spinning (example of a car with its weight more outbound from the center of the car) and then the same ice skater once they pull their arms in (example of a car with more of its mass centralized). I realize that is more an example of conservation of momentum but I think it paints a good picture of rotational inertia as well.

I could be wrong but I'll bet that of most of the GTs that get wreck, most high performance street cars in general, are from compression braking. Either lifting while turning or getting the rear end out under power and then lifting. These cars make significant power, this means that it will also make significant "negative" torque when you lift the throttle. This negative torque acts just as if you hit the rear brakes if the clutch is engaged. Imagine what would happen if the rear of your GT was hung out and you then mashed the brake pedal but only the rear brakes engaged. This braking effect of the rear tires will "slingshot" the car back the opposite direction that it is stepping out (similar to a motorcycle high side). The car will go back to being pointed straight but will do it with so much speed that the rear will just keep going initiating the full spin of the car.

GTs will "step out" for many different reasons. Spinning the tires on a crowned road will cause the rear to "slide" down the crown. A bump where one tire retains contact and tractive force and the other does not, or driving over water or something else slick with just one wheel... this causes the one tire that has traction to power steer or "yaw" the car... it's a similar effect to getting hit from behind in one taillight. The power is only being applied to one side of the car. The diff will try to transfer power to the wheel with traction in this instance too, exaggerating the issue. Exiting a corner and spinning the tires while still laterally accelerating is an obvious one as well as a steering input during heavy acceleration.

I personally chalk most wrecks up to:
1. Power wheel spin followed by a "step out", followed by a throttle lift, followed by an instantaneous over steep and vehicle spin
2. A lift in cornering or at a crest

Ths GTs have no:

Boost Control: Nothing to limit power for the gear it is in leaving it up to the driver to modulate power in 1st and 2nd.
Traction Control: Nothing to aid the driver in an instance of misjudgment in the application of power or a surface irregularity that induces wheel spin.
Stability Control: Nothing to aid in recovery of the yaw effect (braking outside tire to prevent spin)

Add all this up with:
1. Novice Driver
And or
2. Bad weather / road condition

And you get many wrecked GTs.

The hardest thing for a driver to learn in my opinion is to not lift if the back has stepped "way" out. Needed response is opposite of instinct. A little step out and catching it soon, yes lift, however... if it is way out... if you lift, you're going around. The proper approach is to reduce but modulate the power and essentially drift the car until control is regained. Much easier said than done. Some instances on the street or track there is no room for this and you’re screwed regardless of skill. I'm not a fan of "drifting" but a drifting school in my opinion does wonders for drivers learning to control power induced over steer.


Just my opinion as to why so many GT’s get wrecked.


Cheers gentlemen!


P.S. Chip's story reminded me of something one of our pro drivers once said to a spectator. Our driver was stating how hairy a particular higher speed corner was and the importance of the proper line and setup coming into it. The spectator asked how fast he was taking that particular turn. Our driver stated he was a little over 100 mph through the corner. The spectator responded, "100, that's not that fast." Our driver smiled and said, "When things are fine, a hundred mph isn't that quick... but trust me, when things aren't fine… 100 mph is damn fast!" Spinning backwards at 100 is a lot quicker than glued to the road in a straight line at 100. :)
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Great info in this thread! Thanks!
 

GKW05GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
May 28, 2011
2,755
Fayetteville, Ga.
Very interesting thread especially for me a new owner just learning the car tendencies. Driving my Corvette for 10 years I have become very comfortable and confident but again many times the traction control or stability control kick in probably saving me more than once. Obviously the GT is a completely different in controls and the massive difference in power The few times I lost traction in the GT, usually at higher rpm's in first gear I've had no issues. After reading all these post I guess I was just lucky more than good. A reminder of respect for the car and the driving conditions.
 

KJD

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Dec 21, 2005
1,012
Location, Location
Many many thanks cobra498 and MoTeC Magic!!

I learned more in your posts about controlling our cars than perhaps any post EVER on this board.

And that's saying something because this is the greatest auto board ever.

Now to practice my pitiful skills!
 

PL510*Jeff

Well-known member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Nov 3, 2005
4,881
Renton, Washington
Steve,

I thought this was all BS too until a track session at VIR 2 years ago. Even with super stickey Hoosier R-6s warmed up I lifted off the throttle during a slight right hand bend (only about 10 degrees and I did not touch the brakes) at about 140 MPH and the ass end of my GT came around so fast it was mind blowing. Mentally I immediately wrote my car off and as I left the track sideways at well over 100 MPH I hammered the brakes hoping my car would continue pretty straight and stay away from all the concrete barriers. A complete 360 that consumed about 300+ yards across wet grass and I was able to steer out of it. Miraculously, I didn't hit anything but that was pure luck. When a GT gets away from you, it happens at warp speed.

Chip

AT VIR i was fortunate to have a local vintage racer as an instructor. Something like 25 years of racing at VIR.

On the first lap around the track he told me about the most dangerous place on this track. The slight bend by start/finish on the main straight. The surface is slightly crowned right in the middle of the track for about 150'. It's very hard to see this. And he said that just watch as most of the drivers place their cars in the center of the track. Usually a "safe" place to drive. He said it wouldn't surprise him of more than a few GT's lost it during our time at VIR.

Low and behold, as per Chip's dare devil ride, and a couple of others too, a pretty high speed loss of control was the result. At that very "safe place" from the middle of the track.

Learning to drive the GT at the extreme's is at best difficult. Whether it be first gear or any of the others. The balance of the car is so darn good, it seems very easy to drive. And it is. Untill "that" moment happens. Then all hell breaks loose.

One of the more difficult things to "get a really good feeling for" in the GT is the steering. It is very quick but a bit on the numb side as far as steering feed back goes. A very slight twitch of the wheel is all it takes - and around you go. Messy and un-nerving on a race track. And usually very expensive when it happens on the street.

I would venture a some what educated guess than many of the GT accidents were the result of slight but quick movement of the steering wheel as the car was transistioning a change in balance. Camber change,Too much right foot, too much steering, and slightly delayed reaction time by the driver, leads to that Oh Sh*t moment.

You at that point just hope that this isn't going hurt too much nor be too expensive.

just my $ .02.
 

f4udriver

GT Owner
May 9, 2011
49
Springfield, Il.
Incredible information Much appreciated

Now if only there wasn't frost on the ground here in Illinois.
 

Kayvan

GT Owner
Jul 13, 2006
4,782
Steering is very quick, looking down at radio or road side can have u within inches of guard-rail...

Luckily it corrects quickly