GM scraps high perforrmance division
- Thread starter dbk
- Start date
Kingman
GT Owner
This is soooooooooo stupid. I'm a Detroit guy............and this just breaks my heart.
They continue to do such foolish things....after they finally get it right.:frown
I gotta get a beer and commiserate with some car guys.:rofl
They do this over and over again.:ack
They continue to do such foolish things....after they finally get it right.:frown
I gotta get a beer and commiserate with some car guys.:rofl
They do this over and over again.:ack
1973... 2009. No wonder John needed to get out of Caddy. He's been very quiet since.
AtomicGT
GT Owner
BlackICE
GT Owner
Car's are now designed in Washington DC as are banking policies! :thumbsdow :ack
That is what happens when the Feds are your investors and hold all of the cards.
That is what happens when the Feds are your investors and hold all of the cards.
If the above article is the one Bony emailed to me today, somewhere in the thing it says the SS type cars on existing models will still be available.
It specifically says, for instance, that those who want a Camaro SS needn't worry.
'Wish I could be confident about that.
My guess is before long the "small three" will build the 4 banger 'Stangs, Chargers, & Camaros and folks like Roush, etc., will be the outfits who actually make a real CAR outta 'em. That is until they're banned from doing so as well...
:frown:frown:frown:frown:frown:frown:frown
It specifically says, for instance, that those who want a Camaro SS needn't worry.
'Wish I could be confident about that.
My guess is before long the "small three" will build the 4 banger 'Stangs, Chargers, & Camaros and folks like Roush, etc., will be the outfits who actually make a real CAR outta 'em. That is until they're banned from doing so as well...
:frown:frown:frown:frown:frown:frown:frown
Great attitude. Company employees millions of Americans over the last 50 years, but because they won't develop any more Cobalt SS's, **** em. If you think they haven't addressed their cost structure in ways that foretell the apocalypse, you just haven't looked at the situation. Their restructuring plan is available in PDF. Check it out.
Complex problems are funny. Look around you. This isn't a 6-12 month recession, and this goes way beyond some peripheral low-volume models. They said that if they got 16 billion they'd fire 50,000 people and go nuclear on the dealerships of at least 4 brands. That's if they get funding. If Don Leclair hadn't mortgaged every asset Ford had down to the Blue Oval itself, they'd be right there with them. Call it prescience or foresight or whatever, the reality is that it was luck.
The CTS-V, the HHR SS...who gives a shit? I'm more concerned with the fact that a market that had trended between 15-17 million units for years has dropped to 9.5 as of this month, and as a result, we're going to inevitably drop several hundred thousand more people into the unemployment line. I'm not looking for GM to send several hundred thousand aging retirees into local homeless shelters as an added bonus.
What are we putting in the tens of millions of square feet of manufacturing facilities slated to close? How are the dozens of communities and states that rely on these facilities to provide their tax base going to fill the coffers to pay for basic services? This stuff is way beyond easy answers or cable news network soundbite solutions. The auto industry is just a few rolls of the snowball in the avalanche that is coming.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I'm not a GM guy, but watching the decimation of a hundreds of thousands of people's lives brings me no pride.
Complex problems are funny. Look around you. This isn't a 6-12 month recession, and this goes way beyond some peripheral low-volume models. They said that if they got 16 billion they'd fire 50,000 people and go nuclear on the dealerships of at least 4 brands. That's if they get funding. If Don Leclair hadn't mortgaged every asset Ford had down to the Blue Oval itself, they'd be right there with them. Call it prescience or foresight or whatever, the reality is that it was luck.
The CTS-V, the HHR SS...who gives a shit? I'm more concerned with the fact that a market that had trended between 15-17 million units for years has dropped to 9.5 as of this month, and as a result, we're going to inevitably drop several hundred thousand more people into the unemployment line. I'm not looking for GM to send several hundred thousand aging retirees into local homeless shelters as an added bonus.
What are we putting in the tens of millions of square feet of manufacturing facilities slated to close? How are the dozens of communities and states that rely on these facilities to provide their tax base going to fill the coffers to pay for basic services? This stuff is way beyond easy answers or cable news network soundbite solutions. The auto industry is just a few rolls of the snowball in the avalanche that is coming.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I'm not a GM guy, but watching the decimation of a hundreds of thousands of people's lives brings me no pride.
BlackICE
GT Owner
B O N Y
MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Joey.... time to talk to your doctor about your meds:thumbsdow
DBK responded to your post, I agree with his comments, and ask you to please take into consideration that in a few years your son will be reading some of your posts on this board. Make him proud, this post is shameful:bs
Now back to the ALL FORD car show, will the TV be 50" or 52"?:frown
B O N Y
MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Most of us with mutual fund products are GM stockholders... I wince whenever I hear about any company have a difficult time, even a moma and pop dry cleaners or restaurant. Everyone of us is bleeding. Ask the waitress at Denny's how her tips have been impacted.
gtjoey
Keep Smiling - GT Owner
- Oct 14, 2005
- 3,455
I know what I said my friend.... I think freedom of speech is still SO FAR A RIGHT, NO? SO ,DONT FIX THE PROBLEM AND KEEP PUSHING IT UNDER THE RUG? THAT WORKS, BONY I DONT NEED 30 BILLION MY FRIEND? WANT TO GIVE IT TO ME? WHO CARES FOR WHAT? As for dbk your RIGHT , your looking through a special pair of glasses. LET ME EXPLAIN. My first 5 cars were a 69 culass/69 442/65 s.s./66 stinray and my 54 mercury, In 1979 when G.M. had training programs I went every summer to get certified till I was old enough to work and graduate school. That tarrytown plant is closed like alllll the others as there moto was build them to break and we make money on repairs, you know tha fake engine lite at 12,000 law suit, the fake diesel engine cadillacs lawsuit, the 8/6/4 engine law suit, the dupont paint falling off the cars in silver and black.........DID I MAKE THE POINT.? IS THIS DELETED ALREADY.... I THINK IVE BOUGHT MY SHARE OF AMERICAN, EVEN AMERICAN BEERS...... NOT MADE IN GERMANY!!!!! LOVE YOU..........DONT ADD MY KID INTO ANY OF THIS........GTJOEY 1314/0004 OR ILL TELL YOUR KID TO LOOK UNDER THE FLAG..:lol:lol
GTNJ
GT Owner
op
What does freedom of speech have to do with anything? I don't think you get the situation. At all. And that's why I bust on your posts that say things like "GM IS DEAD I'M PROUD TO NOT OWN ONE!!" You come in ridiculously half cocked with anecdotal stories about how you worked at a plant with Q.C problems 30 years ago that closed 15 years ago and this is supposedly somehow relevant to converting debt-to-equity in order to fund $50 billion dollars of VEBA payments? Huh?
This is no longer just about legacy costs Joey. That should be painfully obvious. It's a convenient scapegoat for people that don't get or refuse to acknowledge what's going on. Let me hit you with some numbers:
Toyota, annual loss: $5 billion dollars
Nissan, annual loss: $2.6 billion dollars
Honda, half year loss: $1.4 billion dollars
How is this possible? Legacy costs essentially don't exist at Toyota and they managed to lose $5 billion for the year. I literally want you to explain it to me. If you're not happy GM has lasted long enough to build up a base of millions of retirees they are stuck paying for, take it up with the U.S government and tell them you like the way the Japanese government handles it better.
Also, please provide me actual evidence to support the assertion GM are not addressing their legacy costs and competitive gaps in cost. Like I pointed out, you can get the sweeping restructuring plan in PDF. Also, please provide the analysis on what the social costs are in regards to cutting the 650,000 retirees living off GM pensions loose vs. funding the company with $20-30 billion outside of a bankruptcy to eliminate brands and offload healthcare obligations to the VEBA.
Should I start hitting the phones to get backup too? :rolleyes
This is no longer just about legacy costs Joey. That should be painfully obvious. It's a convenient scapegoat for people that don't get or refuse to acknowledge what's going on. Let me hit you with some numbers:
Toyota, annual loss: $5 billion dollars
Nissan, annual loss: $2.6 billion dollars
Honda, half year loss: $1.4 billion dollars
How is this possible? Legacy costs essentially don't exist at Toyota and they managed to lose $5 billion for the year. I literally want you to explain it to me. If you're not happy GM has lasted long enough to build up a base of millions of retirees they are stuck paying for, take it up with the U.S government and tell them you like the way the Japanese government handles it better.
Also, please provide me actual evidence to support the assertion GM are not addressing their legacy costs and competitive gaps in cost. Like I pointed out, you can get the sweeping restructuring plan in PDF. Also, please provide the analysis on what the social costs are in regards to cutting the 650,000 retirees living off GM pensions loose vs. funding the company with $20-30 billion outside of a bankruptcy to eliminate brands and offload healthcare obligations to the VEBA.
Should I start hitting the phones to get backup too? :rolleyes
tpraceman
THEE GT OWNER
I understand Joe's frustration. We are car guys and we eat and breath performance.
And I have yet to talk with my nephew (Bob Phipps) manager GM performance, but I think his passion for engineering excellence and brilliant mind will help GM where ever. Even if it is engineerin electric go carts.
And DBK is also right on. The old school of "don't worry it will all work out fine" can no longer be tolerated.
I have said it many times if each one of us expresses our concerns to those who do not buy from the USA car guys are only hurting themselves and our fellow countryman.
So if we can just sway 10% to buy Ford, Chrys or GM we all will be livng the American dream once again......but a whole lot smarter:thumbsup
And I have yet to talk with my nephew (Bob Phipps) manager GM performance, but I think his passion for engineering excellence and brilliant mind will help GM where ever. Even if it is engineerin electric go carts.
And DBK is also right on. The old school of "don't worry it will all work out fine" can no longer be tolerated.
I have said it many times if each one of us expresses our concerns to those who do not buy from the USA car guys are only hurting themselves and our fellow countryman.
So if we can just sway 10% to buy Ford, Chrys or GM we all will be livng the American dream once again......but a whole lot smarter:thumbsup
KMCBOSS
RED GT owner
GM, Ford and Chrysler still have a chance to get back in the game. They all have an opportunity to dominate in a brand new market - hybrids, alternative fuel and electric cars - especially electric. They also have to try to get into a market they almost totally abandonded to the asian car makers - compacts and subcompacts. They may have to import cars they make in Europe or elsewhere to get into those markets again and the unions are not goning to like that - but IMHO it has to be done. No reason to give any of the other markets that they have done well in the past i.e. trucks but they have to be competative in markets where customer focus is now - hybids, compacts and sub compacts -----IMHO.
KMC, the small car market in the U.S will never be successful as long as the U.S government does not pursue any kind of energy policy. People in Europe and Asia buy small cars out of necessity, either because of prohibitively high fuel costs or overflowing urban centers that can't accommodate large cars. You can make a high content compact or subcompact for a high price and people will buy it. They have proven over and over and over that they will not do that here. Just think, a U.K Focus RS is nearly a $50k car! How big is the $50k focus market? :lol Or even $35k? Or $25k?
If we wanted to fill the coffers with cash to fix roads and fund mass transit, eliminate the issue of manufacturers constantly chasing product lineups that rely on forces out of their control, and end our dependence on foreign oil, we'd slap a dollar for dollar tax on fuel tomorrow. This has been proven the world throughout over and over.
Truck share in the U.S went down to 7-8% when gas went up to $4 a gallon. By the time it dropped back to $2 it was right back up to 15%. This cycle will never end. People in the U.S purchase vehicles rationally, and they will not buy Ford Fiestas when gas is $2.50 a gallon and they can fill up a medium sized SUV, and in turn, it makes building these cars at a reasonable profit a nightmare.
I'm Mr. Anti-Tax, but this is one I'd live with because it kills several national issues at once. Agree or disagree?
If we wanted to fill the coffers with cash to fix roads and fund mass transit, eliminate the issue of manufacturers constantly chasing product lineups that rely on forces out of their control, and end our dependence on foreign oil, we'd slap a dollar for dollar tax on fuel tomorrow. This has been proven the world throughout over and over.
Truck share in the U.S went down to 7-8% when gas went up to $4 a gallon. By the time it dropped back to $2 it was right back up to 15%. This cycle will never end. People in the U.S purchase vehicles rationally, and they will not buy Ford Fiestas when gas is $2.50 a gallon and they can fill up a medium sized SUV, and in turn, it makes building these cars at a reasonable profit a nightmare.
I'm Mr. Anti-Tax, but this is one I'd live with because it kills several national issues at once. Agree or disagree?