Front Brake Ducts`
- Thread starter BlackICE
- Start date
Indy GT
Yea, I got one...too
Brake Ducts
Nothing is for free.
The reason (at least one of) the FGT design team decided to cap the front brake ducts was it increases the body drag coefficient. May not be much but the car does become more "draggy" once you use the frontal high pressure to cool the rotors.
Open them up, route your hoses to the rotors, check for tire interference, etc, but know the mod does effect body drag.
Again the design team did their homework and just because they are capped off in our production vehicles does not mean they ran out of money or abandon the mod on a whim.
Have faith in Fred's team! They did it right (except maybe the Ricado axle bolt problem.....but that's another LONG post...)
Nothing is for free.
The reason (at least one of) the FGT design team decided to cap the front brake ducts was it increases the body drag coefficient. May not be much but the car does become more "draggy" once you use the frontal high pressure to cool the rotors.
Open them up, route your hoses to the rotors, check for tire interference, etc, but know the mod does effect body drag.
Again the design team did their homework and just because they are capped off in our production vehicles does not mean they ran out of money or abandon the mod on a whim.
Have faith in Fred's team! They did it right (except maybe the Ricado axle bolt problem.....but that's another LONG post...)
Canepa Design GT brake duct system
I visited Canepa Design yesterday in Scotts Valley, near Santa Cruz, on my way to Laguna's 50th Anniversary. By the way the track record at Laguna was broken yesterday by Bourdais at a Champ car practice with a 1:05:080held in conjunction with the Anniversary celebration. Now that was cool. Our GTs, Z06s, Vipers, etc are doing very good in the low 1:40s. Ok, back to the brake ducts - no news. Bruce Canepa was in FL at the GT on his website with his mods was just recently sold. He is suppose to call me when he returns. The person there knew nothing about the GT items for sale. I have a feeling he just opened up the ducts & left it at that. The "front brake ducts" are functional! They don't lead to the front brakes but the ducts are fuctional! It's only a guess. I'll let all know what he says to me soon. Stay tuned but don't hold your breath!
Ed
I visited Canepa Design yesterday in Scotts Valley, near Santa Cruz, on my way to Laguna's 50th Anniversary. By the way the track record at Laguna was broken yesterday by Bourdais at a Champ car practice with a 1:05:080held in conjunction with the Anniversary celebration. Now that was cool. Our GTs, Z06s, Vipers, etc are doing very good in the low 1:40s. Ok, back to the brake ducts - no news. Bruce Canepa was in FL at the GT on his website with his mods was just recently sold. He is suppose to call me when he returns. The person there knew nothing about the GT items for sale. I have a feeling he just opened up the ducts & left it at that. The "front brake ducts" are functional! They don't lead to the front brakes but the ducts are fuctional! It's only a guess. I'll let all know what he says to me soon. Stay tuned but don't hold your breath!
Ed
Posted picture of drivers side wheel and ducting. The passenger side, sorry no picture available, is more problematic due to the a/c fittings. They need to be cut-off and re-positioned.
Also the ducts will rub against the tires in some circumstances.
Posted in photo gallery.
Dave
Also the ducts will rub against the tires in some circumstances.
Posted in photo gallery.
Dave
Canepa Design front brake ducts
Ok I finally spoke to Bruce Canepa at Canepa Design. The GT on his website http://www.canepa.com was a white non-stripe one he bought. He added the wider than stock black stripes. He also didn't carry them over to the rear of the car & then removed the side stripes. He "felt the side stripes were too Mustangish."
The "functional" front brake ducts are the stock ones painted black with the rear opened up. They don't have hoses, etc as they are only functional as ducts & have nothing to do with cooling the brakes. The mod includes replacing the front screen with a stainless steel black anodized screen. The opened up painted ducts with screen costs $1500 installed. They don't sell them as parts but have shippers & can arrange to have your GT brought to their shop.
Also for $5500 he can lower your GT 1". Instead of doing it by changing the spring preload he changes the lower shock mount of the control arm. He reports the ride quality is kept & the factory settings are preserved. Ummm... Geez, I paid only a little more for my trick remote reservoired Penskes from T&A Shocks.
So, there you have it friends. You be the judge. Reporting from sunny CA,
Ed
Ok I finally spoke to Bruce Canepa at Canepa Design. The GT on his website http://www.canepa.com was a white non-stripe one he bought. He added the wider than stock black stripes. He also didn't carry them over to the rear of the car & then removed the side stripes. He "felt the side stripes were too Mustangish."
The "functional" front brake ducts are the stock ones painted black with the rear opened up. They don't have hoses, etc as they are only functional as ducts & have nothing to do with cooling the brakes. The mod includes replacing the front screen with a stainless steel black anodized screen. The opened up painted ducts with screen costs $1500 installed. They don't sell them as parts but have shippers & can arrange to have your GT brought to their shop.
Also for $5500 he can lower your GT 1". Instead of doing it by changing the spring preload he changes the lower shock mount of the control arm. He reports the ride quality is kept & the factory settings are preserved. Ummm... Geez, I paid only a little more for my trick remote reservoired Penskes from T&A Shocks.
So, there you have it friends. You be the judge. Reporting from sunny CA,
Ed
What is the point of opening the ducts when they don't do anything useful? As it was pointed out, opening the duct increases drag. The is worth it if you get a benifit, like better brake cooling, or else why bother.
We need more information about how this is done the right way. Only barondw has done it right that I know of. Barondw what was involved in relocated the a/c lines and do the ducts exit into the middle of the rotors with a fitting that maximizes the air flow, or is it just a duct pointing to the center of the rotors?
We need more information about how this is done the right way. Only barondw has done it right that I know of. Barondw what was involved in relocated the a/c lines and do the ducts exit into the middle of the rotors with a fitting that maximizes the air flow, or is it just a duct pointing to the center of the rotors?
Black Ice and Others:
On the passenger side the air conditioning fittings literally have to be cut off and then refitted out of the way of the duct. It is not super difficult but requires various skills, a/c knowledge, cutting, welding skills, etc. Also the duct is a tighter fit ariound the plumbing. One day if I remember I will take and post another picture of the passnger side duct.
For Canepa to claim they have a brake duct kit, based on what Ed found out and posted, is misleading at best.
As to the amount of drag by running with them open, I think is a red herring. Yes there is more drag but come on guys you are not doing land speed records at Bonneville, so why would it matter? The design groiup obviously thought of doing ducting, ala Z06, or the removable panel would not be there. But I am still convinced they had to cut back on work and money to get the car into actual production. So the ducting never happened.
Dave
On the passenger side the air conditioning fittings literally have to be cut off and then refitted out of the way of the duct. It is not super difficult but requires various skills, a/c knowledge, cutting, welding skills, etc. Also the duct is a tighter fit ariound the plumbing. One day if I remember I will take and post another picture of the passnger side duct.
For Canepa to claim they have a brake duct kit, based on what Ed found out and posted, is misleading at best.
As to the amount of drag by running with them open, I think is a red herring. Yes there is more drag but come on guys you are not doing land speed records at Bonneville, so why would it matter? The design groiup obviously thought of doing ducting, ala Z06, or the removable panel would not be there. But I am still convinced they had to cut back on work and money to get the car into actual production. So the ducting never happened.
Dave
barondw, how much better did the brakes work while on the track with this change? Is the work worth the reward?
Bruce
The work is all custom. Required cutting and welding a lip on.
For those that think this is a relatively easy mod, it isn't. It requires a lot of work, skills, tools, equipment, and fitting as well as the work required on the passenger side.
The only people I would trust to do this work, are the GTGuy or Bob Ida. That does not mean that there aren't others who are qualified but my comfort level is with the pros I know personally and have done work on the car. The work is time consuming and not inexpensive.
Even with the extra cooling the car goes through a set of brakes pads in aday at Watkins Glen, 4 x 40 minute sessions.
Dave
The work is all custom. Required cutting and welding a lip on.
For those that think this is a relatively easy mod, it isn't. It requires a lot of work, skills, tools, equipment, and fitting as well as the work required on the passenger side.
The only people I would trust to do this work, are the GTGuy or Bob Ida. That does not mean that there aren't others who are qualified but my comfort level is with the pros I know personally and have done work on the car. The work is time consuming and not inexpensive.
Even with the extra cooling the car goes through a set of brakes pads in aday at Watkins Glen, 4 x 40 minute sessions.
Dave
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Are they any other benifits other the longer pad life, such as extended rotor life, or less heat fade, etc?
Looks fabulous. I haven't even had the belly pans off to take a look at the scope of that project but I'd feel better about serious track time with some ventilation. I wonder when someone will offer a hotter compound with the proper pad shape? 4 - 40 min sessions seems a little light but I can certainly believe it with stock pads. Do the rotors die a quick death too?
I've gotten to the point on the mustang where the front rotors crack after a weekend or two. The rear weight bias of the GT ought to bring better wear to the table.
Barondw,
Curious as to what kind of times you guys are doing at the glen? Street tires or Hoosiers?
What group do you go to the glen with? I am considering leaving the race car home 1 weekend and taking the gt to a d.e. It would be fun to go with other FGT's My big concern is getting the GT on my trailer ,I don't have a winch and will never be able to open or get out once loaded .Thought about just driving out to the Glen 6 hours,but after reading your post I'm afraid I'LL be driving home with no brakes! Ron
Curious as to what kind of times you guys are doing at the glen? Street tires or Hoosiers?
What group do you go to the glen with? I am considering leaving the race car home 1 weekend and taking the gt to a d.e. It would be fun to go with other FGT's My big concern is getting the GT on my trailer ,I don't have a winch and will never be able to open or get out once loaded .Thought about just driving out to the Glen 6 hours,but after reading your post I'm afraid I'LL be driving home with no brakes! Ron
Drive the car, Just bring extra brake pads they are easy to change. We run with Phoenix Group in June and August. It takes us about 5 hours to get there, its no big deal.
They divide drivers into 3 groups, novice, intermediate, and advanced. All novice are assigned an instructor, some intermediate have instructors, and solo drivers are spot checked with instructors. Please note I said classification is by driver skill and not the type of car one is driving.
Dave
cobrar1339
GT Owner
As for the rotors.
While I have yet to run the GT at the track, I can speak from experience with a Zo6 and M3. The Z would toast a set of rotors in a weekend run very hard. The M would warp rotors quickly.
Cryo Treated Rotors
After speaking with an M team from Turner motorsports in 1994, they turned me on to Frozenrotors.com. They cryo treat the rotors. With the M3 the warping problem went away. With the Z I am able to run the PFC01 perf friction compound and the rotors do not groove. If I run this compound on stock rotors they are very rough in a day. At the end of the month I will be on my 5th weekend with the Z rotors, which includes a 4 hours enduro ans another enduro coming up. The owner is a performance car nut, he has several cars. He is easy to speak with and will help with question.
Believe it or not cryo does work. It is not real expensive and will be one of the first things I do when I start serious track days. If you change the compound and keep the rotors stock you may see heavier rotor wear. As said before pads are cheap and simple.
Brake Fluid Observations on other cars
On another note I have found the Motul RBF 600 factory Line brake fluid to be the best match with the GM ABS unit. Others that ran the ATE super blue have all had issues gunking up the unit. The Ford fluid is not bad IMO, it is made by performance friction, not as good as the Motul IMO, but as close as you can get with Dot3. I run this in a 5.0 A Sedan.
Pad Compound experience
I have tried many compounds over the years. I have found a few mfg's that do well with one car and not another. Example the Hawks and Porterfields worked great on the PBR mustang calipers. The Carbotecs and PFC seam to work better on the Z. It may take some experimenting to find out which is the best solution. I have yet to search what pads you are running or what is currently available in the aftermarket. Can you post up who is making an aftermarket pad for the GT?
I have a good friend that tests compounds and set-up's for various Mfg's. I know he has not played with a GT, but I may be able to contact the mfg and see what testing they have done.
Tires and Braking - Observations / Experience
I have learned that tires play just as big a role in braking as the pads do, maybe more. For example at Buttonwillow with the stock tires. At the end of the front straight I have to break about 30 yards from the turn in point. The ABS makes lots of nosie at this point and I just make the turn.
With the Nitto R2's and in about 1/2" wider size I can go about 5 yards deeper before braking and ABS barely engages.
With the Goodyear Eagles on 18' up front I can go a full 10-13 yards deeper and no ABS interaction at all. These tires weight are about 10 lbs lighter per wheel as well. No steel belts. The reduced rotating mass is also factor here.
The brakes on the C5 Z do not feel as good as other exotics, but they have never failed me. It is more of a confidence situation than a performance issue. I have seen others spend tons of money on upgrades when it was not necessary. At the end of the day they are a little faster, from the confidence, but not enough to justify the cost. And nothing some extra seat time or a good driving school would not solve.
Brakes do not stop a car - Tires do.
maybe the guys who have run both stock tires and Hoosiers can chime in to see if the theory hold true for the GT as well. I see no reason it would not. But you never know.
Brake Ducts
I have run many cars with and without. The Z is known for hot rotors, so I added them. There is not a big difference in the stopping power. The difference is seen in how often I need to flush the calipers. 30 min sessions are not enough to cause issues at the So. Cal tracks. Tracks with big elevation changes like Laguna, Sears Point may make be different. I have run 1:37's - 1:38's in the Z at Laguna without issue and drive it home. I do flush at the end of day 1. Ony because the down hill part of the straight is a bit scary and I want insurance. Turn one is a real PITA coming down from those speeds, you have yet another braking area at two then they cool off by the time you brake at the top of the hill.
I would notice some fade at the end of day 1 prior to the ductsat Buttonwillow, but nothing at Big Willow Springs. If I flushed the calipers they came right back. With the ducts I do not notice anything till the end of day two. Keep in mind the Z will melt the dust boots right off after a couple hard sessions.
I doubt many will ever run the GT as hard as I run this car. If you do a quick flush of the fronts when you notice any fade, the color of the fluid will tell the story. If the fluid turned brown or black that likely caused the fade. If it is clear it was a pad issue. Also note, the thinner the pads get, the faster the fluid will boil. Meaning you would need to adjust your flush cycle to compensate accordingly. For me 1/3 worn off is not really noticable in a 30 min session. If you run back to back sessions all the time, that is a different story.
Sorry for the long post, got carried away.
While I have yet to run the GT at the track, I can speak from experience with a Zo6 and M3. The Z would toast a set of rotors in a weekend run very hard. The M would warp rotors quickly.
Cryo Treated Rotors
After speaking with an M team from Turner motorsports in 1994, they turned me on to Frozenrotors.com. They cryo treat the rotors. With the M3 the warping problem went away. With the Z I am able to run the PFC01 perf friction compound and the rotors do not groove. If I run this compound on stock rotors they are very rough in a day. At the end of the month I will be on my 5th weekend with the Z rotors, which includes a 4 hours enduro ans another enduro coming up. The owner is a performance car nut, he has several cars. He is easy to speak with and will help with question.
Believe it or not cryo does work. It is not real expensive and will be one of the first things I do when I start serious track days. If you change the compound and keep the rotors stock you may see heavier rotor wear. As said before pads are cheap and simple.
Brake Fluid Observations on other cars
On another note I have found the Motul RBF 600 factory Line brake fluid to be the best match with the GM ABS unit. Others that ran the ATE super blue have all had issues gunking up the unit. The Ford fluid is not bad IMO, it is made by performance friction, not as good as the Motul IMO, but as close as you can get with Dot3. I run this in a 5.0 A Sedan.
Pad Compound experience
I have tried many compounds over the years. I have found a few mfg's that do well with one car and not another. Example the Hawks and Porterfields worked great on the PBR mustang calipers. The Carbotecs and PFC seam to work better on the Z. It may take some experimenting to find out which is the best solution. I have yet to search what pads you are running or what is currently available in the aftermarket. Can you post up who is making an aftermarket pad for the GT?
I have a good friend that tests compounds and set-up's for various Mfg's. I know he has not played with a GT, but I may be able to contact the mfg and see what testing they have done.
Tires and Braking - Observations / Experience
I have learned that tires play just as big a role in braking as the pads do, maybe more. For example at Buttonwillow with the stock tires. At the end of the front straight I have to break about 30 yards from the turn in point. The ABS makes lots of nosie at this point and I just make the turn.
With the Nitto R2's and in about 1/2" wider size I can go about 5 yards deeper before braking and ABS barely engages.
With the Goodyear Eagles on 18' up front I can go a full 10-13 yards deeper and no ABS interaction at all. These tires weight are about 10 lbs lighter per wheel as well. No steel belts. The reduced rotating mass is also factor here.
The brakes on the C5 Z do not feel as good as other exotics, but they have never failed me. It is more of a confidence situation than a performance issue. I have seen others spend tons of money on upgrades when it was not necessary. At the end of the day they are a little faster, from the confidence, but not enough to justify the cost. And nothing some extra seat time or a good driving school would not solve.
Brakes do not stop a car - Tires do.
maybe the guys who have run both stock tires and Hoosiers can chime in to see if the theory hold true for the GT as well. I see no reason it would not. But you never know.
Brake Ducts
I have run many cars with and without. The Z is known for hot rotors, so I added them. There is not a big difference in the stopping power. The difference is seen in how often I need to flush the calipers. 30 min sessions are not enough to cause issues at the So. Cal tracks. Tracks with big elevation changes like Laguna, Sears Point may make be different. I have run 1:37's - 1:38's in the Z at Laguna without issue and drive it home. I do flush at the end of day 1. Ony because the down hill part of the straight is a bit scary and I want insurance. Turn one is a real PITA coming down from those speeds, you have yet another braking area at two then they cool off by the time you brake at the top of the hill.
I would notice some fade at the end of day 1 prior to the ductsat Buttonwillow, but nothing at Big Willow Springs. If I flushed the calipers they came right back. With the ducts I do not notice anything till the end of day two. Keep in mind the Z will melt the dust boots right off after a couple hard sessions.
I doubt many will ever run the GT as hard as I run this car. If you do a quick flush of the fronts when you notice any fade, the color of the fluid will tell the story. If the fluid turned brown or black that likely caused the fade. If it is clear it was a pad issue. Also note, the thinner the pads get, the faster the fluid will boil. Meaning you would need to adjust your flush cycle to compensate accordingly. For me 1/3 worn off is not really noticable in a 30 min session. If you run back to back sessions all the time, that is a different story.
Sorry for the long post, got carried away.
great info, no ducts?, brake pad choices
Thanks for the great info Cobra R 1339! I think we're neighbors along with Shadowman, Black Ice, etc!
Hey, since the brake ducts are non-functional why didn't Ford just not include them (esthetic reasons?). Make the front intake a little wider instead?
Stillen offers various brake pads for the GT http://www.stillen.com Also, I believe Porterfield will add various pads to the GT backing plates if you send them in or you can do a tracing of the plate & they will make them. http://www.porterfield-brakes.com
Ed
Thanks for the great info Cobra R 1339! I think we're neighbors along with Shadowman, Black Ice, etc!
Hey, since the brake ducts are non-functional why didn't Ford just not include them (esthetic reasons?). Make the front intake a little wider instead?
Stillen offers various brake pads for the GT http://www.stillen.com Also, I believe Porterfield will add various pads to the GT backing plates if you send them in or you can do a tracing of the plate & they will make them. http://www.porterfield-brakes.com
Ed
cobrar1339
GT Owner
Yeah, I'm in So Cal.
Andy and his guys at Porterfield seem to be able to do whatever you want as long as he has a blank to work from. I have used his stuff many times. He is a good guy to deal with. You just need to tell him what you want. If you are not sure he will make recommendations. In the past his formulas were close to the Hawks in the sedan class cars. I would note that some of his pads I have used work great at the track once they get warm. But cold they do not stop well. If you are looking for a mixed driving pad, be sure to tell him that. Yes you would e compormising to some degree, but it sure makes it nice not to have to change them all the time.
Carbotech has a pretty nice pad we have been using on another vette lately. The Xp series is what we are running, the higher the number the less rotor friendly. The XP 8 is not bad, it has better modulation than the Hawk Blues in this application with less dust. It is way easier on the rotors than the PF01. They do however tend to have a very high initial bite when doing break in. But after, they feel very solid and not as touchy. I would be tempted to try these as the cars weight is not that far off the vette, plus the weight distribution would likely make it work even better. good tech guys here as well.
While the PF01 is stout and maybe among the best out there, it will dust the whole side of the car badly. It seems to come off hot and you will even notice the clear on the wheels has some residue that won't come off without using a clay bar. Unless you are headed for Lemans I would skip this formula on the GT.
Andy and his guys at Porterfield seem to be able to do whatever you want as long as he has a blank to work from. I have used his stuff many times. He is a good guy to deal with. You just need to tell him what you want. If you are not sure he will make recommendations. In the past his formulas were close to the Hawks in the sedan class cars. I would note that some of his pads I have used work great at the track once they get warm. But cold they do not stop well. If you are looking for a mixed driving pad, be sure to tell him that. Yes you would e compormising to some degree, but it sure makes it nice not to have to change them all the time.
Carbotech has a pretty nice pad we have been using on another vette lately. The Xp series is what we are running, the higher the number the less rotor friendly. The XP 8 is not bad, it has better modulation than the Hawk Blues in this application with less dust. It is way easier on the rotors than the PF01. They do however tend to have a very high initial bite when doing break in. But after, they feel very solid and not as touchy. I would be tempted to try these as the cars weight is not that far off the vette, plus the weight distribution would likely make it work even better. good tech guys here as well.
While the PF01 is stout and maybe among the best out there, it will dust the whole side of the car badly. It seems to come off hot and you will even notice the clear on the wheels has some residue that won't come off without using a clay bar. Unless you are headed for Lemans I would skip this formula on the GT.
cobrar1339
GT Owner
I just looked at the Stillen site.
I would call and ask Stillen himself what formula he recommeds for the car, rather than just buying over the net. The Mintex is a good pad. But these seem to be just pads that fit the Brembo caliper we have. For example it lists Ford GT / EVO. I would rather use a pad that was designed for our car. The Brake bias we have and weight of the car. Stillen will know which is the right one. His rally time will have shed lots of light on this area. JMO
I would call and ask Stillen himself what formula he recommeds for the car, rather than just buying over the net. The Mintex is a good pad. But these seem to be just pads that fit the Brembo caliper we have. For example it lists Ford GT / EVO. I would rather use a pad that was designed for our car. The Brake bias we have and weight of the car. Stillen will know which is the right one. His rally time will have shed lots of light on this area. JMO