Viper under review

[Kayvan]

The Bentley GT is good example; blew away all sales expectations.

VW effectively bought a Hood Ornament.

 

[skyrex]

I am no expert on car values, and I don't even want to pretend to be one. But in my opinion what made the GT work was the limited two year run. My biggest hurdle in buying the car was my mind saying "You are going to spend this much on a FORD??"

Ford does not have the name brand exotic appeal of Ferrari or Lamborgini to most people. It is a workman, everyday brand. (and there is nothing wrong with that) Seeing one in person, talking to a few owners and getting to drive one put me over the edge. I could rationalize in my head that it was a limited run and I was getting something more rare than an F-car or a Lambo and that there were only 4038 available worldwide. I don't know that there would be a consistent market for a 160K+ Ford. The rarity of the car is part of the appeal.....okay driving the car is the major appeal :biggrin but the rarity means something to a lot of us.

Just my opinion though....:cheers

 

[B O N Y]

The Bentley GT is good example; blew away all sales expectations.

They effectively bought a Hood Ornament.

Drive one and I bet you change your mind, when they first came out they could be bought for $150k...:wink

 

[Cobrar]

Halo Cars, rare models, collector car stuff. These things are for the profitable times, right now, Ford, GM better make dam sure we can keep our volume.

The marketing problem is this,
until most 14-29 year olds see domestic brands as cool, sporty, fun, and dependable. We have major problems.

Amen. Ford had best be "on" spending their dime on the next real 'halo cars' -- getting an absolutely flawless N.A. launch of relevant transportation - (B and C cars). And did I mention, - SOON!!

 

[RALPHIE]

I dont think 1/4 of those F-cars make it to the states. Do they?

In 2005, of the 5,000 F Cars built, about 1,500 came to North America
(Ref. - http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=108918)

 

[RALPHIE]

Amen. Ford had best be "on" spending their dime on the next real 'halo cars' -- getting an absolutely flawless N.A. launch of relevant transportation - (B and C cars). And did I mention, - SOON!!

Well, I hope that we, as FGT owners, continue to show off our vehicles to the public, for when they see the cars, they know that Ford can (and does) make great products. Our cars truly are "the Pace Car for an Entire Company." And, as such, they will continue to be great advertisements for the company.

When I drive across the country, I try and stay on the old "US" highways - 2 lane mostly, but with little traffic. However, they go through very scenic landscape and many small towns. If I stop for fuel, food, lodging, etc., a crowd invariably forms. Many ask what it is (My answer: "It's a Ford"), and those that are aware of the car are very appreciative, as they believe it is probably the only one they'll see in their lifetime. I believe these cars will be Ford advertisements for many years to come.

 

[skyrex]

Drive one and I bet you change your mind, when they first came out they could be bought for $150k...:wink

I do not consider myself the Bentley GT demographic. It was the car I was least looking forward to getting behind the wheel of when I went to a driving event. For a heavy, well built luxury car it was impressive. Deceptively fast acceleration, drives well, whisper smooth cabin, very comfortable with all the luxury and amenities.

 

[cobrar1339]

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/FREE/808279989/1508/newsletter12

Same info showed up in Autoweek.

 

[Cobrar]

Well, I hope that we, as FGT owners, continue to show off our vehicles to the public, for when they see the cars, they know that Ford can (and does) make great products. Our cars truly are "the Pace Car for an Entire Company." And, as such, they will continue to be great advertisements for the company.

When I drive across the country, I try and stay on the old "US" highways - 2 lane mostly, but with little traffic. However, they go through very scenic landscape and many small towns. If I stop for fuel, food, lodging, etc., a crowd invariably forms. Many ask what it is (My answer: "It's a Ford"), and those that are aware of the car are very appreciative, as they believe it is probably the only one they'll see in their lifetime. I believe these cars will be Ford advertisements for many years to come.

I agree with you and I believe Ford is on that page as well - their current outreach is to utilize the satisfied customer, employee and retiree base to assist them in motivating new customers to - Drive One. The GT's are the 'Pace Car for an Entire Company' and as such, we are defacto ombudsmen for the Company. The 'job' doesn't pay well, but he benefits can be fun! :wink

 

[dbk]

In fact if and when Ford releases the replacement of the FGT expect to see an adjustment. There are many FGT's sitting in garages not being driven that will find themselves all of a sudden in the want ads.

I doubt you'll see much of an adjustment if and when the next Ford halo car shows up because so much time will have passed and it will be such a different car that the GT will rest alone in it's own supercar place. If they had continued the run for year 3 with the Mark II to be a cash cow the values would have tanked. Not Gallardo tanked, but not near the "over sticker for used" level they remain at 2 years out of production.

True, but the "if" is the key word. IMHO I don't think Ford will produce another GT class car for a long time, if ever. At least 7+ years would be my guess.

At least 7 years past GT. It's 2008. If they said tomorrow "we're bringing the GR-1 to market" it wouldn't be on a public road until calendar year 2011 as a 2012. And that ain't happenin. There are factions that want to do a new car, but the cash situation says no. Lots of interesting stuff floating around though.

Hermann Salenbach, who is the director of Advanced Product Creation and SVT will be giving a Powerpoint presentation at the Rally on the creation and engineering behind the Cobra Roadster and the GR-1. Last night I got a look at the two documents with all of the engineering, performance, technical, etc data of the two vehicles, and these were HIGHLY developed vehicles. They had clearly spent millions of dollars with extremely detailed CAD data, aero info, tolerances, weights, etc on both cars. They could easily be re-started, and both were based on modified GT architecture. Really exciting stuff.

The obvious car to build is the Cobra roadster, but personally I would prefer a GR-1. It was going to be a much more upscale car which had the 575 successor which eventually became the 599 as it's performance target. Obviously, the Cobra roadster market is substantially larger because the car could be produced much cheaper and at a higher volume, but I don't think I've seen a car design as sexy as the GR-1 outside of the GT, and the GR-1 is a global player. The Cobra would need a full redesign from the J Mays AudiCobraTT. GR-1, put it together and put me on the list.

 

[fjpikul]

DBK, thank you for setting BONY straight.

 

[B O N Y]

Frankie, getting a little testy now, ??

 

[B O N Y]

We can 'if' and 'what' all day long. I have other stuff to do today.

What I know is the FGT is an amazing halo car that proved that Ford can compete with anyone. Trust me, I was laughed at when I signed the contract to buy one two years before the first car rolled off the line. I watched all the experts say what a joke it would be. There are quiet now.

I hope that we can develop a sign up list for the next machine that Ford has in mind to replace the Petunia project. I am ready again to put down a $25k nonrefundable deposit today.

 

[BlackICE]

I am ready again to put down a $25k nonrefundable deposit today.

A wise man once told me that a deposit of 25k doesn't mean shi-t, unless one is willing to litigate!
:ack

 

[B O N Y]

yup.... very true, and I have the legal bills to back up those words

 

[checklist_34]

Ferrari is on target to build 6,500 cars in 2008.
Maserati will build 7,000 this year and hopes to build 12,000 in 2012. (Source: Motor Trend)

Corvette production runs between 10,000 and 20,000 per year - call it 15,000 average. In it's heyday, they sold 38,000 in '69, 46,500 in '76, 53,000 in '79 & 51,500 in '84. (Source: http://www.oddrob.com/corvetteStats.asp)

Vipers have been made at a rate of about 2,000 per year, with production starting in 1992.

Ford built the GT at a rate of about 2,000 per year for two years. I'd say that is quite low comparably.

This is a great discussion and I enjoyed reading it all. I'd like to add a few thoughts about 'vette sales and the success of American sports cars.

Sales for the C6 corvette have been

'05 = 37,000
'06 = 34,000
'07 = 41,000
'08 = 35,000

C5 sales were

\97 = 10k
98 = 31k
99 = 33k
00 = 34k
01 = 36k
02 = 36k
03 = 35k
04 = 34k

C4 sales were
84 = 51k
85 = 40k
86 = 35k
87 = 37k
88 = 23k
89 = 26k
90 = 24k
91 = 21k, even with the introduction of the ZR1 which must have been close to 25% of those sales
92 = 20k
93 = 22k
94 = 23k
95 = 21k
96 = 22k

Source for all of those was wikipedia, which I realize isn't perfect. Google corvette and follow the link from the main article to the specific model articles to get the sales figures in tabular form.

It could be said that as the quality of 'vettes has improved, and as the quality relative to other sports cars improved, sales have improved. C6 has sold better than C5, which sold better than C4 (excepting the very early years of the C4). C6 vettes are awesome cars, top to bottom in the line, and cheaper than anything thats close in performance.

Viper sales in 2008 I'd guess are up relative to the previous few years?? The '03+ Vipers were as cool as Vipers always are, but behind the game for performance. The '08 Viper ACR is beating competitors by margins probably never seen before in comparison tests, and I'd guess its sold out, probably at a premium over MSRP?

The Ford GT, which I am gonna own pretty soon, holds its value better than any modern Ferrari or Lambo with even 10% of the production number. In 2006 Ferrari sold 1625 units in North America. http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/01/11/033829.html

So while Ferrari has more cars here than FGTs, the FGTs are all, as far as I have seen, still over the original MSRP and probably close to the original selling prices. That can't be said for Mercialagos or GAllardos, or F360s or even F430s (and when the model changes, F430 prices will plummet). Never mind more common imports.

Americans are still, perhaps, loyal to or willing to be loyal to, American brands if the American brands put up quality product.

And the "crude" technology thats at the heart of the argument against American cars really isn't. The new CTS-V, the Z06, the ZR1, the Vipers all use boring old pushrods, and all deliver performance/mpg and performance/reliability that is not really even approached by any "high tech" import.

CAn you imagine how severe the beating the ACR could deal FErrari et al. if it got some real R&D money to back it? Active handling and things like that? The FGT and C6 Z06 are just better tires away from spanking the most exotic cars at the 'ring. 7:40 for the FGT and 7:42 for the Z06, on Goodyear runflats translates to very fast times on decent tires. The ACRs time, unmatched by Enzo, CGT, Pagani and so forth came with 4 tries. The ZR1s second place time came with runflats.

There are alot of challenges ahead for the big 3, but product quality is rapidly meeting or beating import quality, and there is at least some hope. I'm not naieve enough to predict glorious things for the big 3, but there is hope.

 

[checklist_34]

Ford's Gt plan was executed exactly as planned and forecasted. IMO they handled it very, very, well. There was probably some head scratching over the fact so many dealers just grabbed the cars and put them in their secret storage i.e. "personal garage". So they were never reported sold. As for the markup, duh, dis is USA.

As Bony alluded to 4000 or so units in 2 years in the US at over 150k MSRP. I doubt that has ever been matched in the history of the car biz.

Chrysler is in big big trouble. Cerbeus got rocked by the wipsaw gas prices and the Ram sales plan is up in smoke. This is just the beginning of the trouble.

They are so over dealered in many area's. No brand anywhere in the world want's to buy that problem.
I don't see any out and they might not either, hence Fire sale of Viper, whats next, maybe Jeep.

Halo Cars, rare models, collector car stuff. These things are for the profitable times, right now, Ford, GM better make dam sure we can keep our volume.

The marketing problem is this,
until most 14-29 year olds see domestic brands as cool, sporty, fun, and dependable. We have major problems.

I'm (almost) one of those guys. I'm just into my 30's. I hated american cars in college, but I'm a realistic and open minded person, and I understand that they've come a long way in the last 10 or 15 years.

The problem for the big 3 now is that the same people that just believe what they read or what their neighbors say are now against American cars because the tide of public opinion is against American cars. 20 or 25 years ago, when American cars were near their low-water-mark, those people still liked them because the bulk of public opinion still favored them.

There seems to be a lag with respect to reality when it comes to perception of cars.

 

[B O N Y]

I spoke with someone that has sold 60+ FGT's today. 50% of his sales are out of the USA.
I would guess that between 500 to 1000 FGT's have been sent out of the USA above the 102 that where sent to Europe and the Canadian production.

 

[HHGT]

I spoke with someone that has sold 60+ FGT's today. 50% of his sales are out of the USA.
I would guess that between 500 to 1000 FGT's have been sent out of the USA above the 102 that where sent to Europe and the Canadian production.

If that is the case and approximately 15% have been wrecked, then that leaves about 1500 left with clean titles? Subtract Canada deliveries, Matech racing, a few more wrecks (hope to God that does not happen) and we may be pushing 1000 solid cars in the not too distant futures. I think I will be revising my Hold to a Strong Hold for sometime to come.

 

[B O N Y]

Sam, I can assure you more than 15% have suffered serious damage.