replacement fuel injectors
- Thread starter paul b
- Start date
Indy GT
Yea, I got one...too
Paul, WHY would you think there is one and to appropriately answer the question, what do you mean as "better"?
Some people try different products that do the same job, but do it better. If you changed the words fuel injectors to spark plugs you would probably get a lot of opinions, I just thought someone may have found a product that worked better .
Fubar
Totally ****** Up
Stock injectors are very good pieces. In fact, I would put them on par with the stock rods. I am not a "techy" guy (like Indy) so my grasp may be a bit elementary but as it has been explained to me, the internal components of the stock injectors are super lightweight so it's easy to get a very high pulse rate.... high pulse rate being a good thing. If you are looking to make more power (and expect to run out of fuel with the stock setup) you could shop ID2000s. When my needs exceeded the stock injector ability, I just had the stock injectors milled out and flow tested. badaboom... the 500cc stock injectors became 1000cc uber-stock injectors.
Nafod
GT Owner
BlackICE
GT Owner
Mark where did you get the injectors milled at? What is the turn around time and cost compared to buying a larger set?
I have my race car injectors tuned, cleaned and matched by Tim here. http://www.injector.com/
I have not done the GT.
I have not done the GT.
Fubar
Totally ****** Up
It's not expensive. You might end up buying a few new injectors if any of your current ones don't produce as expected. The big concern was that 1000cc injectors would not be able to run 'slow' enough at idle but these injectors are great and everything tuned perfectly. I'll see if I can get Shawn to chime in here. He will have a better idea on cost and time (but it wasn't bad).
Indy GT
Yea, I got one...too
2112
Blue/white 06'
Fubar
Totally ****** Up
I have been told that the company no longer uses the old injectors. They are currently buying the ford injectors in bulk, then milling them out to 1000cc. When they flow test the injectors the group them into sets that have similar output, then sell them that way. They are about $130 a piece.
MoTeC Magic
Spectator
Hi Guys,
Mark is correct, the stock injectors are very good pieces. They are Bosch injectors that are state of the art. They have a very low pintle mass which results in very quick lift off of the seat (opening of the injector) and very linear responses of the fuel delivery with respect to duty cycle and pulse width.
I’m not surprised that Ford picked such a good injector. I’m not sure this is still true but several years ago, Ford was the only one of the big 3 that had their own injector laboratory.
The problem with most aftermarket injectors is that the person selling them typically doesn’t produce them. They are simply reselling an injector made by a major injector manufacture that is simply in a larger size or different style. The problem with this is that if they aren’t the manufacture, then they probably don’t have the injector characterization information. This is never offered or provided by major injector manufactures unless you are a major car producer (Ford, GM, etc…). Call Bosch for this information and you basically get laughed off the phone. Even if you get ahold of this information from the injector manufacture, it often isn’t right. I know of several GM vehicles with incorrect injector data in the stock cars ECU programming. Hence, why Ford build their own injector lab. They weren’t getting accurate information either.
Injectors are very dynamic, their response and amount of fuel delivered for a given pulse width changes with respect to the fuel pressure it is trying to open against and the voltage that is being supplied to it. Both of these change throughout the operating ranges of most engines, especially on an engine with a closed loop fuel supply system like the GT. The more rail fuel pressure you run against the injector the slower it will open and the less fuel will be delivered for a given pulse width. The lower the voltage the slower the injector moves as well.
This “injector characterization” information that we speak about is programing related to the injector’s behavior (since all injectors behave differently) that is programed into the vehicles ECU. This information is a compensation that corrects the computer’s calculated pulse width if fuel pressure or battery voltage changes. This comp adds or subtracts opening time of the injector (pulse width) with the goal of making the injector supply the same amount of fuel for x pulse width regardless of fuel pressure or battery voltage. As fuel pressure drops, the added time reduces because the injector now opens quicker, if it goes up the time is increased because the injector now opens slower. If the battery voltage drops it adds time; if it goes up it reduces it. These comps are typically called “Dead Time Comps”
Our ECUs have other comps in them for things like engine temperature, air temperature, etc… Many of these other comps are based on physics. Like AT for example. When I program a MoTeC ecu… my air temp comp for fuel is based on physics barometric equations. If the temperature changes by 10 degrees C; the density changes by about 3.5%. Guess what… my fuel better change by 3.5%. My comps do this math and make these changes… but if my dead time comps are wrong, you can through this comp and its math out the window. Not having correct injector characterization programing is why tuners using aftermarket injectors while using factory computers usually have so much trouble getting the drivability correct. Often times they never get it straightened out. This is a large reason why and most of them have no clue why it is occurring. They don’t realize that the injector they installed is responding differently than the stock injector and that it is throwing other comp tables that are mathematically based off.
This is just the surface, I’m sure you can imagine it gets more complicated once you dive deeper into the details. Because the injectors are critical to our engines running properly, and because 99.9 percent of aftermarket injectors do not come with any dead time comps… any comps at all usually, let alone correct comps… there have been no options till recently.
Enter a company called Injector Dynamics. A fellow MoTeC dealer and good friend started this injector business a few years ago now, after long discussions between a small group of the top MoTeC dealers. We knew we needed this information and knew it wasn’t available. We all talked about it for months before Paul decided to shut his business down, borrow a good deal of money, and then spent 3 months building and perfecting his flow bench for the sole purpose of harvesting injector data for use in our computers. It started with us sending injectors in to him for him to map and provide characterization information. Through that process he found some great pieces, started modifying them, and now only sells them. “Don’t bother sending in your injectors, these are the best.”, was the new quote. So now, these are the only things I will put in the vehicles I work on. Side note: The bench is run by and data harvested by an M800 MoTeC ECU
Because of this effort we have Ford injector data to enter into the stock GT ecu that ensures our aftermarket injectors work properly.
Mark’s injectors are 1000cc injectors… they were one of the first mods we did for his car. They’ve been in his car for almost 2 years now I believe. We initially did this because we needed more fuel. On top of getting you more fuel capabilities for your injectors… with an aftermarket ECU and someone that knows what they are doing with injection timing, they will pick up about 30-40whp on a 700whp vehicle with no other changes. On a stock ECU, there is only one parameter for injection timing. Running injection timing that takes advantage of the injectors to produces that 40whp is not recommended for the street with the stock ECU. A race tune can be set up to utilize this injection timing and pick up the power. The reason for this is that the injection timing needs to be different for light load and heavy load. There is only one parameter in the stock ECU so it is all or nothing. An aftermarket ECU like a MoTeC can shift the injection timing based on whatever parameter I want, so it changes as the engines operating condition changes… this is the reason for these statements.
Mark had stated $130, they actually retail at $115 each.
I have a GT in Houston that we are installing another one of our mechanical fuel pump systems along with our CAD designed fuel cell that some of you have seen. That GT is being set up for straight methanol. We are installing ID2000cc injectors in that vehicle. The intake manifold has to be modified for the 2000s to work because they are shorter. We have a CNC program that clearances the injector pockets… we’re doing this right now on Mark’s intake (for future expansion) along with the CNC mods to it for removing the stock water ports to make room for our GT intake hot water bypass kit.
The 2000cc injectors are $240 each and we have Ford injector data for them too.
Hope this gives all that are interested the basic information that they need and were looking for. I obviously don’t recommend any other solution for injectors in the GT.
Cheers
Mark is correct, the stock injectors are very good pieces. They are Bosch injectors that are state of the art. They have a very low pintle mass which results in very quick lift off of the seat (opening of the injector) and very linear responses of the fuel delivery with respect to duty cycle and pulse width.
I’m not surprised that Ford picked such a good injector. I’m not sure this is still true but several years ago, Ford was the only one of the big 3 that had their own injector laboratory.
The problem with most aftermarket injectors is that the person selling them typically doesn’t produce them. They are simply reselling an injector made by a major injector manufacture that is simply in a larger size or different style. The problem with this is that if they aren’t the manufacture, then they probably don’t have the injector characterization information. This is never offered or provided by major injector manufactures unless you are a major car producer (Ford, GM, etc…). Call Bosch for this information and you basically get laughed off the phone. Even if you get ahold of this information from the injector manufacture, it often isn’t right. I know of several GM vehicles with incorrect injector data in the stock cars ECU programming. Hence, why Ford build their own injector lab. They weren’t getting accurate information either.
Injectors are very dynamic, their response and amount of fuel delivered for a given pulse width changes with respect to the fuel pressure it is trying to open against and the voltage that is being supplied to it. Both of these change throughout the operating ranges of most engines, especially on an engine with a closed loop fuel supply system like the GT. The more rail fuel pressure you run against the injector the slower it will open and the less fuel will be delivered for a given pulse width. The lower the voltage the slower the injector moves as well.
This “injector characterization” information that we speak about is programing related to the injector’s behavior (since all injectors behave differently) that is programed into the vehicles ECU. This information is a compensation that corrects the computer’s calculated pulse width if fuel pressure or battery voltage changes. This comp adds or subtracts opening time of the injector (pulse width) with the goal of making the injector supply the same amount of fuel for x pulse width regardless of fuel pressure or battery voltage. As fuel pressure drops, the added time reduces because the injector now opens quicker, if it goes up the time is increased because the injector now opens slower. If the battery voltage drops it adds time; if it goes up it reduces it. These comps are typically called “Dead Time Comps”
Our ECUs have other comps in them for things like engine temperature, air temperature, etc… Many of these other comps are based on physics. Like AT for example. When I program a MoTeC ecu… my air temp comp for fuel is based on physics barometric equations. If the temperature changes by 10 degrees C; the density changes by about 3.5%. Guess what… my fuel better change by 3.5%. My comps do this math and make these changes… but if my dead time comps are wrong, you can through this comp and its math out the window. Not having correct injector characterization programing is why tuners using aftermarket injectors while using factory computers usually have so much trouble getting the drivability correct. Often times they never get it straightened out. This is a large reason why and most of them have no clue why it is occurring. They don’t realize that the injector they installed is responding differently than the stock injector and that it is throwing other comp tables that are mathematically based off.
This is just the surface, I’m sure you can imagine it gets more complicated once you dive deeper into the details. Because the injectors are critical to our engines running properly, and because 99.9 percent of aftermarket injectors do not come with any dead time comps… any comps at all usually, let alone correct comps… there have been no options till recently.
Enter a company called Injector Dynamics. A fellow MoTeC dealer and good friend started this injector business a few years ago now, after long discussions between a small group of the top MoTeC dealers. We knew we needed this information and knew it wasn’t available. We all talked about it for months before Paul decided to shut his business down, borrow a good deal of money, and then spent 3 months building and perfecting his flow bench for the sole purpose of harvesting injector data for use in our computers. It started with us sending injectors in to him for him to map and provide characterization information. Through that process he found some great pieces, started modifying them, and now only sells them. “Don’t bother sending in your injectors, these are the best.”, was the new quote. So now, these are the only things I will put in the vehicles I work on. Side note: The bench is run by and data harvested by an M800 MoTeC ECU
Because of this effort we have Ford injector data to enter into the stock GT ecu that ensures our aftermarket injectors work properly.
Mark’s injectors are 1000cc injectors… they were one of the first mods we did for his car. They’ve been in his car for almost 2 years now I believe. We initially did this because we needed more fuel. On top of getting you more fuel capabilities for your injectors… with an aftermarket ECU and someone that knows what they are doing with injection timing, they will pick up about 30-40whp on a 700whp vehicle with no other changes. On a stock ECU, there is only one parameter for injection timing. Running injection timing that takes advantage of the injectors to produces that 40whp is not recommended for the street with the stock ECU. A race tune can be set up to utilize this injection timing and pick up the power. The reason for this is that the injection timing needs to be different for light load and heavy load. There is only one parameter in the stock ECU so it is all or nothing. An aftermarket ECU like a MoTeC can shift the injection timing based on whatever parameter I want, so it changes as the engines operating condition changes… this is the reason for these statements.
Mark had stated $130, they actually retail at $115 each.
I have a GT in Houston that we are installing another one of our mechanical fuel pump systems along with our CAD designed fuel cell that some of you have seen. That GT is being set up for straight methanol. We are installing ID2000cc injectors in that vehicle. The intake manifold has to be modified for the 2000s to work because they are shorter. We have a CNC program that clearances the injector pockets… we’re doing this right now on Mark’s intake (for future expansion) along with the CNC mods to it for removing the stock water ports to make room for our GT intake hot water bypass kit.
The 2000cc injectors are $240 each and we have Ford injector data for them too.
Hope this gives all that are interested the basic information that they need and were looking for. I obviously don’t recommend any other solution for injectors in the GT.
Cheers
Indy GT
Yea, I got one...too
Shawn-
Thanks very much for the great technical post! Marky Mark is in very good hands.
As you so correctly point out for an owner to just replace his injectors because some marketing hype says another is "better" is not an astute move. Especially if the replacement injector is a rebranded mass produced unit with no injector characterization and/or the Dead Time Comps are not correctly known or loaded into the ECU.
Thanks for confirming that the OE Bosch units Ford used in our 5.4 engines are "good injectors"!
Thanks very much for the great technical post! Marky Mark is in very good hands.
As you so correctly point out for an owner to just replace his injectors because some marketing hype says another is "better" is not an astute move. Especially if the replacement injector is a rebranded mass produced unit with no injector characterization and/or the Dead Time Comps are not correctly known or loaded into the ECU.
Thanks for confirming that the OE Bosch units Ford used in our 5.4 engines are "good injectors"!
2112
Blue/white 06'
MoTeC Magic
Spectator
Thanks... and thanks for your information on the aero subject... I took a look at all of that.. just didn't find the time to post anything.
Cheers
MoTeC Magic
Spectator
Not sure what other injectors have been spoken about in these circles... I was referring to the ID1000cc and ID2000cc injectors and that we have all of the ford injector data for them i.e. breakpoints, slopes, etc....
Cheers