John Mihovetz [ ACCUFAB ] Modifying my crankshaft


911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
911Teo. It would be great if you can detail your driving habits. In other words, do you do the 1/4 mile often? Launch procedure and how often and at what RPM? Rolling Pedal to the Metal? etc.. Also, when it gave out can you describe the noise/vibrations etc... What type of engine damage if any? Lastly was that a Ford Pulley?

I drive my car everyday (hence the 27k miles) and often hard. I have done several track days (the ones with the turns though) and 1 VMax event (start is not crucial).

At the track I push it really to the limits. Went through 4 sets of front stock rotors and 2 sets of the Stillen slotted ones (now have the Stillen/AP brake upgrade) and several sets of pads (usually Pagid RS29).

I installed the Ford Racing pulley + tune at around 3k miles and the Whipple at 25k miles....

The Whipple whilst awesome has been a bit of a pain. At first we had some fuel issues (car running too lean for my liking) fixed with the BAP (Not my ideal solution but short of pulling a Fubar there is nothing else there).

Then it was running hot, so purchased some racing fans and modded all the front end (sealing the aperture and getting rid of the grills)

Then when at LeMans (classic lemans... on the track) I destroyed a plug.... and eventually one of the pistons gave up at Silverstone. Top land broken....

So together with Roush we decided to switch pistons to the racing ones made by JE. CR is a little lower.

When Roush/Mountune rebuilt the engine they noticed the keyway and fixed it.

I am running the 19psi pulley still, but considering going to 17psi since there is nothing with a number plate that can touch this car anyway...

Running the engine in (got the car back on Monday) and will put it on the dyno sometimes next week after 1k miles at sensible rpms....
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
Here is what happened to the piston

topland.jpg


And here the scoring on the cylinder

cylscoring.jpg



And these are the new pistons that we are putting in

JE.jpg
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
I drive my car hard.... 4 sets of front stock rotors and 2 sets of the Stillen slotted ones... when at LeMans (classic lemans... on the track)... pistons gave up at Silverstone.

I love you man!!!
 
H

HHGT

Guest
Thanks for the details Matteo. it is really appreciated. As a Whipple'd casual driver and no track time I tend to contemplate the value of the Whipple, other than bragging rights of course and the occasional spirited driving. This whole keyway thing is perplexing at best. As explained I would like to believe that much of the keyway degradation happened during the Pulley upgrade and not by the Whipple. The big question in my mind is what engineering analysis relevant to the keyway were made by Ford Engineering when they offered the Pulley upgrade. Thanks again.
 

Lorenzo

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 28, 2008
626
U.S.A.
That piston looks a lot like the one that failed in Ed's car.
 

B.M.F.

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jan 29, 2009
1,785
Minnesota
Thanks for the details Matteo. it is really appreciated. As a Whipple'd casual driver and no track time I tend to contemplate the value of the Whipple, other than bragging rights of course and the occasional spirited driving. This whole keyway thing is perplexing at best. As explained I would like to believe that much of the keyway degradation happened during the Pulley upgrade and not by the Whipple. The big question in my mind is what engineering analysis relevant to the keyway were made by Ford Engineering when they offered the Pulley upgrade. Thanks again.

I believe he still has the stock Balencer on it. The whipple is what creates the stress on the balancer and key ways. It would be hard to believe the factory blower would of done the damage to the key way with just a pulley on it. The rotors are much bigger and heavier on the 4.0. Detonation could have caused some of it aswell...
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
I believe he still has the stock Balencer on it. The whipple is what creates the stress on the balancer and key ways. It would be hard to believe the factory blower would of done the damage to the key way with just a pulley on it. The rotors are much bigger and heavier on the 4.0. Detonation could have caused some of it aswell...

How do the Gen 1 Whipple rotors compare to the Gen2 cnd Gen3 rotors?
 

nota4re

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 15, 2006
4,194
I always hate to go against a manufacturers advice/recommendation but in the case of the Whipples, I guess I have a difference of opinion when it comes to their belt tension recommendation. Some Whipple owners have occasionally complained about an annoying belt-chirp that sometimes appears when the car is cold. I remember reading on here that a remedy is to slightly lessen the tension applied by the idler pulley. Eventually Sam's (HHGT) car developed the chirping sound and I recall writing or calling Whipple to see what they thought about slightly loosening the idler pulley tension. I received a stern recommendation that this SHOULD NOT be done and I passed the advice to HHGT. Several months later (and not so many miles for Sam's car), Sam still had the occasional chirp problem. At our next opportunity to service his car, we did the adjustment to back-off on the idler pulley tension. Happily this fixed the chirping probem. The downside is that with less tension (and fractionally less belt wrap), the opportunity for belt slipping occurs. My personal opinion is that we are not getting any belt slip although I don't have the data (on Sam's car) to prove it.

Fast forward to the past weekend when we installed a Whipple on FastFreddy's car. Hmmmm.... what to do about the belt tension. Too tight and he will likely have or develop the chirping. Too loose and we risk having belt slipping which will show up on the dyno. Mind you, FastFreddy has the 21lb pulley and many others have "only" the 19lb pulley. While assembling FF's car, we really paid close attension to what was going on with the OEM belt tensioner arm. What we found is that if we had the idler pulley adjusted as hard as we could, we had virtually no play left in the tension arm. Alternatively, if we had just a modest pressure with the idler pulley, we regained more of the OEM motion on the tensioner. We opted for this less-than-max tension in order to have more buffering with the OEM tensioner. Early results is that this is the right decision. There is no chirping AND there is absolutely no belt slip up through a maintained 21psi boost level.

I'm not sure how many of you have had an opportunity to see a GT engine run with the cockpit engine access plate off. We have. With both the blower belt and main accessory belt properly tensioned (with the OEM tensioners), you miht think that those tensioner arms don't move much with the car running. (This was my thought, anyway.) I was quite surprised to see the range of motion that the tensioners go through when you blip the car. The transition from acceleration to de-celereration, really makes these tensioners work. My thought is that if you severely limit their range of motion, then you take away one of the critical "shock absorbers" for the harmonic balancer. John, INDY, and many others here are much smarter than me on this whole engine dynamics topic, but I would advise everyone to be cautious of the tension you have in your Whipple belt. Our (LIMITED) experience would suggest that you may not need as much tension as perhaps Whipple thinks you do and, secondly, that extra tension may very well inhibit the built-in shock absorber for the harmonic balancer. Again, with my LIMITED experience - certainly if you are having the belt chirping problem, you may try to back-off on this idler pulley a bit. Just maybe your car is trying to tell you something. If you have access to a dyno, it's easy enough to confirm if you have any slipping or not. This is my LIMITED-Experience perspective and I let the experts comment if I'm full of crap or not.
 
Last edited:

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Thanks Kendall for the excellent writeup. My initial install of my Whipple I followed Whipple's recommendations too. The tensioner was damn tight. When I up my pulley to a 21 for Mojave I thought I may need a shorter belt per Whipple's recommendations. Shadowman told me it should be OK with the longer belt and agreed with your assessment that the Whipple belt adjuster should not be set as tight as possible, but rather loosely. I would say having the OEM tension in the middle of its travel is ideal.

I thought Freddy was running a 19 pulley, I guess it we both will be running 21 PSI Whipples at Mojave, me with a Gen 1 and Freddy with a Gen 2.
 

Black GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jan 2, 2006
771
Good question on the rotor size difference between the Gen 1 2 and 3. I have a Gen 2. Is there more of a problem than with the Gen 2? I am sure th 4L is forsure bigger and more stress on the crank.
 

Fast Freddy

GPS'D 225 MPH
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 5, 2005
2,685
Avondale, Arizona
I always hate to go against a manufacturers advice/recommendation but in the case of the Whipples, I guess I have a difference of opinion when it comes to their belt tension recommendation. Some Whipple owners have occasionally complained about an annoying belt-chirp that sometimes appears when the car is cold. I remember reading on here that a remedy is to slightly lessen the tension applied by the idler pulley. Eventually Sam's (HHGT) car developed the chirping sound and I recall writing or calling Whipple to see what they thought about slightly loosening the idler pulley tension. I received a stern recommendation that this SHOULD NOT be done and I passed the advice to HHGT. Several months later (and not so many miles for Sam's car), Sam still had the occasional chirp problem. At our next opportunity to service his car, we did the adjustment to back-off on the idler pulley tension. Happily this fixed the chirping probem. The downside is that with less tension (and fractionally less belt wrap), the opportunity for belt slipping occurs. My personal opinion is that we are not getting any belt slip although I don't have the data (on Sam's car) to prove it.

Fast forward to the past weekend when we installed a Whipple on FastFreddy's car. Hmmmm.... what to do about the belt tension. Too tight and he will likely have or develop the chirping. Too loose and we risk having belt slipping which will show up on the dyno. Mind you, FastFreddy has the 21lb pulley and many others have "only" the 19lb pulley. While assembling FF's car, we really paid close attension to what was going on with the OEM belt tensioner arm. What we found is that if we had the idler pulley adjusted as hard as we could, we had virtually no play left in the tension arm. Alternatively, if we had just a modest pressure with the idler pulley, we regained more of the OEM motion on the tensioner. We opted for this less-than-max tension in order to have more buffering with the OEM tensioner. Early results is that this is the right decision. There is no chirping AND there is absolutely no belt slip up through a maintained 21psi boost level.

I'm not sure how many of you have had an opportunity to see a GT engine run with the cockpit engine access plate off. We have. With both the blower belt and main accessory belt properly tensioned (with the OEM tensioners), you miht think that those tensioner arms don't move much with the car running. (This was my thought, anyway.) I was quite surprised to see the range of motion that the tensioners go through when you blip the car. The transition from acceleration to de-celereration, really makes these tensioners work. My thought is that if you severely limit their range of motion, then you take away one of the critical "shock absorbers" for the harmonic balancer. John, INDY, and many others here are much smarter than me on this whole engine dynamics topic, but I would advise everyone to be cautious of the tension you have in your Whipple belt. Our (LIMITED) experience would suggest that you may not need as much tension as perhaps Whipple thinks you do and, secondly, that extra tension may very well inhibit the built-in shock absorber for the harmonic balancer. Again, with my LIMITED experience - certainly if you are having the belt chirping problem, you may try to back-off on this idler pulley a bit. Just maybe your car is trying to tell you something. If you have access to a dyno, it's easy enough to confirm if you have any slipping or not. This is my LIMITED-Experience perspective and I let the experts comment if I'm full of crap or not.

i appreciate the attention to detail Kendall :thumbsup

i tested my car today for the first time at home with the Whipple and i realized that BIG azz supercharger with all that boost is awefully close to my head :eek

thanx 4 everything :usa
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
Thanks for the details Matteo. it is really appreciated. As a Whipple'd casual driver and no track time I tend to contemplate the value of the Whipple, other than bragging rights of course and the occasional spirited driving. This whole keyway thing is perplexing at best. As explained I would like to believe that much of the keyway degradation happened during the Pulley upgrade and not by the Whipple. The big question in my mind is what engineering analysis relevant to the keyway were made by Ford Engineering when they offered the Pulley upgrade. Thanks again.

We really thought a lot about this with Roush as well....

The fact that the car had done 25k hard miles on the pulley+tune prevented us from blaming the Whipple completely for the damage.

What I have to say is that I am not sure why Whipple stopped producing the Gen 2 3.5L..... Granted this 4.0L is mega and the torque curve is on a completely different level vs the previous generation.

But it has been a hassle (leaving aside the piston problem). Running hot, lean, breaking plugs etc. And with me considering running a 17psi pulley we would not be far away from a well tuned Gen 2 3.5L....

Would I do it again? it is tricky to say.... especially because the engine rebuild was costly, so I sank quite a bit on this upgrade.... and the car was a monster on the track even before the whipple....

Granted I knew that more HP meant more stress on components, leading to a shortened life.... was it 25k miles on the P+T or 3k brutal miles on the 4.0L? I don't know...
 

Black GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jan 2, 2006
771
Mine makes 743rwhp with the 3.4L. How much more was yours running with the 4L? On pump
 
H

HHGT

Guest
I was told by a reliable source that driving the whipple in a normal manner with occasional spirited habits should not create a problem. With that I will refrain from discussing this further. Having said that, tracking any car will put undue stress on various components but that comes with the price of admission.

Cheers!
 

Lorenzo

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 28, 2008
626
U.S.A.
I was told by a reliable source that driving the whipple in a normal manner with occasional spirited habits should not create a problem. With that I will refrain from discussing this further. Having said that, tracking any car will put undue stress on various components but that comes with the price of admission.

Cheers!

Well said.
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
I like turtles.
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
Mine makes 743rwhp with the 3.4L. How much more was yours running with the 4L? On pump

870hp... but it was the torque curve that was insane and convinced me.....
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
I was told by a reliable source that driving the whipple in a normal manner with occasional spirited habits should not create a problem. With that I will refrain from discussing this further. Having said that, tracking any car will put undue stress on various components but that comes with the price of admission.

Cheers!

Only a fool would think that upping the power by 70% over stock and then taking to the racetrack and giving it all would not cause some collateral damage.

So i am not complaining at all.

I just stated what happened, giving another data point. I love this car and the whipple... was just reporting on what happened....

And I love turtles too!
 

Indy GT

Yea, I got one...too
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 14, 2006
2,526
Greenwood, IN
Only a fool would think that upping the power by 70% over stock and then taking to the racetrack and giving it all would not cause some collateral damage.

So i am not complaining at all.

Absolutely the correct perspective!

And thanks for being candid in appreciating what modifications can and do to engine longevity.

It would be helpful for all us owners who want to tinker and modify our engines to acknowledge this unavoidable consequence.
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
Absolutely the correct perspective!

And thanks for being candid in appreciating what modifications can and do to engine longevity.

It would be helpful for all us owners who want to tinker and modify our engines to acknowledge this unavoidable consequence.

I think you would be wholly regarded as a cry baby if you complained about the GT platform and drivetrain being anything less than robust and well thought out (especially given the time constraints of the project).

But can you deny your affection for turtles? Can you? CAN YOU?