Fubar's GT Build


shelbyelite

PERMANENTLY BANNED
May 10, 2007
1
Is that a 430 Scuderia I see behind it? You holding out on us???
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
I'll be in Frisco in early Jan. Let me know if it will be ready by then!
We might be in tuning phase by late January. Maybe.

Is that a 430 Scuderia I see behind it? You holding out on us???
You got skillz. How can you tell that is a Scuderia from the intake vent (not mine, btw).
 

shelbyelite

PERMANENTLY BANNED
May 10, 2007
1
I know my cars VERY well
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
As a quick side note:

If you guys didn't know, Fischer Motorsprts is the shop/guy that is doing the Motec and tune on my GT (and most of the fabrication). His projects are always 1st class. One of his projects is this Mustang GT500. It was a big hit at the Texas mile and drew tremendous crowds at PMI this year. He just finished this promotional video.

It's worth your time.

 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
I just got the first group of dash examples from my CF guy. The face of the CF is really nice, very glossy. They were created as requested with no holes cut for gauges (I know a few guys were looking for MoTeC Dash options and now you can cut for any size speedo you want.

I attached a few pictures for those that expressed interest. The cast did not come out with etching, indicating where the old gauges were so I just added a stencil. I will go back and use a drawing compass to find the proper center for cutting the holes. I can do that for anyone who wants one of these but I will not make the MoTeC cut as it's location would be a personal preference issue. Also, the warning and odometer cuts were just a tad short, I can adjust them on my cutting table but I hate to mess with it as I don't think it will be noticeable.
 

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mardyn

GT Owner
Dec 20, 2005
490
Beautiful East Texas
Man 'bar, those CF dash panels look great...

good job.

mardyn
 

MoTeC Magic

Spectator
Aug 21, 2009
99
Dallas, TX
Hi Guys,

This was asked on another thread...
http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/showthread.php?23987-End-of-ethanol/page4
... I thought it more appropriate to be answered here since this is similar to what is going to happen Mark's GT.

MoTec Magic - thanks 4 the info :thumbsup when it comes time for me to upgrade my fuel system for whatever reason i now know who to call :cheers i assume you guys do nitrous installations too for use with race gas?

Yes... gasoline, ethanol, or methanol.

My preference is to do a "dry" shot, where the nitrous fuel is added through the main fuel injectors... controlled by a MoTeC ecu. There are some significant advances in nitrous technology lately. To run nitrous the most efficiently when looking to make big power... you need to be able to modulate the amount of nitrous going into the motor. Most people and or teams running big nitrous applications will run either multiple stages of nitrous where you have several different solenoids and you simply turn one on or off depending on how much power you want. This produces a square wave step in power... not ideal unless introduced on a gear change. Others that don't use staged nitrous will pulse the solenoid more or less to control the power level... this is less than ideal because the nitrous is pulsing and it isn't sequential with the cylinders like your fuel injectors are, so you can see how the delivery of nitrous would be inconsistent from cylinder to cylinder.

The new way is with variable orifice valves. We control how far open the nitrous valve is at any given time. This allows us to deliver smooth, non pulsed, nitrous at infinite power levels. On a big nitrous application we can go from 0-500hp or anywhere in-between at any time. We can do 0-300 too.

On a dual power adder application where we have turbo nitrous or blower nitrous here's how I would do this:
(This requires an aftermarket controller, preferably a MoTeC with gear detection... this is how I would set up a TT application... SC will be slightly different,)
A properly controlled system will allow the driver to WOT from a stand still through the entire pull regardless of gear.
Launch control setup allows WOT and clutch dump from standstill. Computer controls allowed wheel spin so that the car accelerates consistently. Once the car leaves or is already rolling, race grade traction control is the safety net if the car should try to spin the tires in any gear at WOT.

1st gear... nitrous will activate at WOT if the clutch is not engaged... boost control valve open for lower boost level... nitrous will come in full 100-150hp shot depending on traction but will ramp out as boost ramps in. At peak boost in 1st, nitrous will turn off... driver is WOT all of 1st gear.

2nd gear... after the gear change, nitrous will reactivate 200-300hp and will again ramp out as boost increases... nitrous will turn off at peak boost... boost control valve open slightly... WOT, TC saftey net

3rd gear... after the gear change, nitrous will reactivate 300hp and will again ramp out as boost increases, it may not ramp out entirely depending on power level desired... boost control most likely closed... WOT, TC safety net

4th gear... after the gear change, nitrous will reactivate 300hp and will again ramp out as boost increases, it may not ramp out entirely depending on power level desired... boost control valve is most likely closed at this point... WOT, TC safety net

5th gear... after the gear change, nitrous will reactivate 300hp and will again ramp out as boost increases, it may not ramp out entirely depending on power level desired... boost control valve is most likely closed at this point... WOT, TC safety net

6th gear... after the gear change, nitrous will reactivate 200hp and will again ramp out as boost increases, it may not ramp out entirely depending on power level desired, however the car has run hard for quite a while at this point, reducing the heat by reducing or turning off nitrous in high gear is advised... boost control valve is most likely closed at this point... WOT, TC safety net
The fact is that the large majority of GT owners won't be in 6th gear... at least with stock gearing. A few will and the option to run however much nitrous is needed is obviously available. Hope this paints a clear picture as to what is possible. Other strategies are possible this is just my preferred approach.

The biggest benefit here is for eliminating boost lag by using a fairly good sized shot of nitrous but having the ability to back it out in the lower gears so that there aren't traction issues.

Cheers
 

soroush

Ford Gt Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 8, 2007
5,256
how does this variable solenoid work? is it a new type of solenoid?
 

MoTeC Magic

Spectator
Aug 21, 2009
99
Dallas, TX
how does this variable solenoid work? is it a new type of solenoid?

Yes... it is a variable orifice... meaning we can control how far open or closed it is. This varies the amount of nitrous being induced. The solenoid also has a "feedback" channel to the computer so that we know where the solenoid valve is.

Cheers
 

soroush

Ford Gt Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 8, 2007
5,256
Yes... it is a variable orifice... meaning we can control how far open or closed it is. This varies the amount of nitrous being induced. The solenoid also has a "feedback" channel to the computer so that we know where the solenoid valve is.

Cheers

thanks!
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
Hey Fish, is there a way to use the MoTeC to sense and adjust for N2O bottle pressure?
 

MoTeC Magic

Spectator
Aug 21, 2009
99
Dallas, TX
Hey Fish, is there a way to use the MoTeC to sense and adjust for N2O bottle pressure?

Yes... I normally do this on my MoTeC nitrous applications.
We use a high quality pressure transducer to adjust the nitrous fuel comp as bottle pressure either rises (requiring more fuel to prevent a lean condition) or falls (requiring less fuel to prevent a rich condition).

Cheers
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
Brilliant! Hard to use any other computer after you've grown aquatinted with the subtle finesse that MoTeC offers.
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
First, I want to bring part of the discussion about my motor in to this thread, as it really belonged here to begin with. The motor builder, John Mihovetz, suggested that I 'balance the cams.' I asked around, on a few different forums, about this process and got one of two replies: either "balance what?" or "that sounds like some snakeoil to me." The responses on this board were, as always, more helpful than most. I am reposting a few of those replies here for future reference:
http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/showthread.php?24033-Balanced-Camshaft&p=297531
Hi Guys,

We've had 2.5L 4cyl turbo methanol engines that turn 12,000 RPM and produced 1,600 hp...and didn't balance the cams. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been and or that it wouldn't have helped.

If I had to do it again, and knowing what I know now... the balance thought process of the cams would have started with our design of the billet cores. I think it's important. Will it make or break the valve train... probably not. But the little bit that I understand about vibration, I believe eliminating any of it is beneficial.

Does it have to be done in your situation Mark? No... Is reducing vibration good, yes... Would you motor benefit from reduced valve train vibration, probably... will it be a world changing modification, no. I think it comes down to peace of mind and knowing that what you did is beneficial to the motor regardless of perceived results. I think you just have to justify to yourself if it's worth the $600 ($150 per cam). There is no doubt it is beneficial to the motor and should be done if money were not the question.

I'd do it but.... You set the value... your call.

Let's be a little careful about mixing apples and oranges. The comments by Soroush are for a pushrod cam/valve arrangement. The FGT as we all know is a completely different architecture.

Rotating dynamics or shaft harmonics are very complex topics and misunderstood by most without actual hands-on or analytical modeling experience. In vogue today for most OE production vehicles is dual-plane tire/rim balancing whereby the outer side of the rim is evaluated for imbalance as is the inner side of the rim. Lead (or more "green" steel) weights are added to each "plane" for a "better" canceling effect of the assembly imbalances. This is now deemed necessary and appropriate for rim widths of 8-12". Interestingly the FGT does not use balance weights on the external rim for aesthetics so a single plane balance can work but I believe the spacing between the two planes is important.

My experience with high speed rotating engine hardware (rotation speeds greater than 10K) all use a design required dual plane balance to a low residual gram-inch callout. Our GT engine cams are approximately 20” long which would tend to favor a multiplane balance, though I see no discussion of balancing a cam shaft at different planes. A car wheel/tire has a much higher rotating mass than our cam shaft but more importantly, the weights are placed at a much higher radius (say 11” from the rotation axis) than a camshaft (maybe ½”). Camshafts spin within their mount bearings on a film of oil which provides inherent damping of any unbalance and thus are naturally damped. Any wheel/tire dynamics are attenuated by the shock absorber mounted remotely to the axle support structure so dynamic responses are more easily noticed by the passengers.

Mark, the “low” cam operating speed, very small radius to add or subtract balance weight and singular plane balance operation IMO makes little sense in spending the $600. In fact drilling holes or grinding off material may actually induce stress risers into the camshaft which might nucleate fatigue cracks. I agree with the comments of Flatrod.

In my conversation with John today, I asked him about the effect drilling on the cam might have, as strength is concerned. His reply was minimal, if any and the net reduction in stress seemed to outweigh my inherent instinct to question this logic. Everything I have read suggests that this process is more beneficial on motors that spin past 10k rpm. However most of those articles focused on valve control and the bounce or hop effect of the valve, the consequent compression loss due to an unsealed combustion camber. i.e.: power power power. Now, I assure you I would like to see power from every dime I spend but lately it seems like I am spending just as much (if not more) to tame that power into a more usable form. In short, I gave the go ahead on this procedure so it's done. I will be very interested in to power band produced by this motor and will try to post a dyno chart of before and after without smoothing. The car made very noticeable oscillations at the high end of the band. Fish and I initially suspected this was due to spark failure, then we found reason to suspect fuel delivery issues but now John says that this procedure will play a huge role in the operation of the motor at higher rpm. That power cruve will be my measuring stick for success on the 'balanced cam' project.

I assume you guys know that John is well aware of this thread and has every desire to see this motor preform well. As is the case with most builders/tuners he isn't necessarily excited about sharing his secrets... but I don't think I've let all of the cats out of the bag.

He sent me two pictures today, always good to see something happening, especially when it involves a billet crank:
The keyway on my original crank was mildly worn. I expected much worse given the way I had gone about getting power from this motor and the number of miles I put on it. The actual pulley on the end of the crank was completely stuck and took more than a little elbow grease to break free.
Crank1.JPG

JohnM said:
Comparison of our crank and your old crank. Note the taper and how much larger the face that the timing gear rests against. This type of crank can only be used in a dry sump application.
NewCrank1.jpg

It's only money:bored
 
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Waldo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 7, 2005
770
Fort Worth, TX
The keyway on my original crank was mildly worn. I expected much worse given the way I had gone about getting power from this motor and the number of miles I put on it.
Fubar,

You were running a 4.0 liter Whipple weren't you?
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Mark what are you going with for the ignition system?

Motec has a CDI box, or you can run an inductive system.
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
I have a M&W Pro-18 all boxed up and waiting for the motor show up.
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
Fubar,

You were running a 4.0 liter Whipple weren't you?
Yep... 4.0l
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
I have a M&W Pro-18 all boxed up and waiting for the motor show up.

If have read good things about that box as the one to go to where others keep failing.
 

MoTeC Magic

Spectator
Aug 21, 2009
99
Dallas, TX
Best ignitions we've run... Run them on all of our street and race vehicles. MoTeC CDI comes in a close second. Nothing else we've tested, in our very high cylinder pressure methanol turbo engines, has even been in the same hemisphere.

Plus the owner of M&W is the sharpest ignition expert I have ever worked with. Nice to work with and be supported by someone that knows what they are doing.

Cheers