600hp 08 Viper Testing against GT


Pete S.

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Aug 18, 2006
529
MA
And if we are lucky, as with passenger air bags, there will be a cut-off switch to disable it.(government regulated traction control)
 

Fast Freddy

GPS'D 225 MPH
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 5, 2005
2,684
Avondale, Arizona
traction control is for gurls. the vette is a chic car
 

GFORCE

GT Owner
Jan 14, 2006
375
I got two get a 08

Ive had four vipers,still have two.Ill trade my 03 on a 08.Thats the joy no,
track control.Thats why i love my gts.One whipple monster the other with
pulley and yada yada yada.Just a real drivers car.
 

FORDGT001

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 9, 2005
300
So you are saying that the stock '08 Viper has to beat the FASTEST time ever recorded? No...that isn't the way a true comparison test is done. Out of over 30 different Z's that I have seen run, including mine...have yet to see a bone stock hit below 11.7...and many are in the low 12's. Yes..Ranger hit those times. What about the guys who can't crack 12.3 in the Z? You have to look at the mag tests where they run the SAME track, SAME driver, SAME condition. I have all the comparison tests done on the z over the last 2 years. Norm is 11.7-12.0. The '06 Viper is at 11.9- 12.3. I have NEVER lost to a new Z at the strip in one of my bone stock Vipers. Of course..I can run 11.5's all day long, and for some reason..it is MUCH quicker than my other Vipers. Not the norm for a stock SRT. Kinda like Ranger's Z. Yes..the '08 will beat the Z with same driver, same track, same condition. The BD?? Not even a concept at the show yet. After EPA..certification..etc, I will begin to think about it. The short lived run of the Z as king of the hill is over. It was a one year run. History of quickest American cars since '92:
92...Viper
93...Viper
94...Viper
95...Viper
96...Viper
97...Viper
98...Viper
99...Viper
00...Viper
01...Viper
02...Viper
03...Viper
04...Viper
05...FGT
06...FGT
07...Z06 (No FGT or Viper produced)
08...???


I have owned 3 C6 Z's...still have an '07. The '06 Viper is about .3 slower than the stock Z in the quarter. The '08 will eat it up. That damn power to weight thing..and add the new sticky stock tires on top of that. 535RWHP...sticky stock tires...new rear-end..upgraded tranny...all new clutch....on a slightly lighter car than the '06 Viper.

Very Interesting.
 

FORDGT001

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 9, 2005
300
So you are saying that the stock '08 Viper has to beat the FASTEST time ever recorded? No...that isn't the way a true comparison test is done. Out of over 30 different Z's that I have seen run, including mine...have yet to see a bone stock hit below 11.7...and many are in the low 12's. Yes..Ranger hit those times. What about the guys who can't crack 12.3 in the Z? You have to look at the mag tests where they run the SAME track, SAME driver, SAME condition. I have all the comparison tests done on the z over the last 2 years. Norm is 11.7-12.0. The '06 Viper is at 11.9- 12.3. I have NEVER lost to a new Z at the strip in one of my bone stock Vipers. Of course..I can run 11.5's all day long, and for some reason..it is MUCH quicker than my other Vipers. Not the norm for a stock SRT. Kinda like Ranger's Z. Yes..the '08 will beat the Z with same driver, same track, same condition. The BD?? Not even a concept at the show yet. After EPA..certification..etc, I will begin to think about it. The short lived run of the Z as king of the hill is over. It was a one year run. History of quickest American cars since '92:
92...Viper
93...Viper
94...Viper
95...Viper
96...Viper
97...Viper
98...Viper
99...Viper
00...Viper
01...Viper
02...Viper
03...Viper
04...Viper
05...FGT
06...FGT
07...Z06 (No FGT or Viper produced)
08...???


I have owned 3 C6 Z's...still have an '07. The '06 Viper is about .3 slower than the stock Z in the quarter. The '08 will eat it up. That damn power to weight thing..and add the new sticky stock tires on top of that. 535RWHP...sticky stock tires...new rear-end..upgraded tranny...all new clutch....on a slightly lighter car than the '06 Viper.
Lamboman your the King of the Vipers So Will the 2010 Viper have 680-700HP? How many 08's will you be getting?
 
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everetto

GT Owner
Sep 4, 2006
186
Desert Southwest
So you are saying that the stock '08 Viper has to beat the FASTEST time ever recorded? No...that isn't the way a true comparison test is done. Out of over 30 different Z's that I have seen run, including mine...have yet to see a bone stock hit below 11.7...and many are in the low 12's.

No, the new Viper won't have to beat the fastest recorded time, but it is the yardstick that is out there, and which comes to mind every time these comparisons come up. As far as Ranger's being the only fast one? Nope, there are quite a few guys over on the Forum running between 11.7 and 11.4 once they learned how to manage the conservative TM which makes it difficult to get a really hard launch. With 600HP the new Viper SHOULD beat the Z in a straight line due to a slightly better lb/HP ratio - if it really does so remains to be seen. As far as the Blue Devil not being shown at Detroit this year - no one expected it to be there. It is meaningless to insinuate something about the car b/c it was not at the show - it's a function of new models coming out in staggered fashion. If they do build the Blue Devil it should have the best lb/HP ratio of any of these cars when it is released. Will something better it in the following years? Probably.
 

FORDGT001

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 9, 2005
300
There are always a handful of guys who will Get better times then the rest of the drivers. I Think the thing to compare is the average Z driver against the average Viper driver. I can't believe that Dodge would waste its time with a new and improved Viper that is slower then the Z06. The Mags will at least test these cars against each other with same drivers same day same conditions. Its interesting that Lamboman has seen 30 different Z's run no better then 11.7 and that his Viper runs 11.5. If the Viper beats the Z in every speed contest(In the MAGS) there will still be non believers. All in All I am very pleased to see 600HP in a production street car. If the numbers are correct then the Viper will have almost a 100HP advantage to the ground then the Z. The BD Corvette will be marked-up at least $100K and in limited supply. The race is on.
 
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lamboman

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jun 14, 2006
248
Atlanta area
Lamboman your the King of the Vipers So Will the 2010 Viper have 680-700HP? How many 08's will you be getting?

LOL. Good to be King of something!! I will be getting 2 at this point. Lime Green with Black stripes and Dark Purple with white stripes.The '09 will be bumped to over 680 if the BD happens to develop. If not...the parts are available thru Mopar to take your '08 close to that level with bolt-ons. The 2010 will use the same basic motor...which I have personally seen at over 705 HP on an engine dyno. The big news in 2010 will be major body change...the power will be available if the HP wars are still on. A little info on this state of the art motor:

This motor is strong low and high- with the high extended several hundred rpm higher. As we saw firsthand on the dynos:
RPM HP TQ
2400 225 495
3700 410 550
4800 524 570
6000 613 535



There was a stable 10 degree (+/- 1 deg) delta between the incoming coolant temp and the outgoing coolant temp at the higher rpm loads.


Driveline loss: They measure a lot of things and the answer was between ~12% depending on what gear and what rpm



One of the dyno test runs is to run the motor at 100% power for 8 hours - with glowing red exhaust


Big valves with new angles: 52.8mm (2.078") intake and 40.5mm (1.59") exhaust


Exhaust cam can change up to 40 deg. This will smooth the idle a lot - to much reduce mis fires and meet EPA needs- but allows for more aggressive profile in mid and upper power bands. Variable exhaust on allows increase in upper power band while a variable intake would increase low end tq.


Massive flow rate increases as demonstrated by:

Gen 1 as a base
Gen 2 +17% over Gen 1
Gen 3 + 6% over Gen 2
Gen 4 +23% over a Gen 3


Knock Sensors and Octane: There are 2 knock sensors. they back off the timing if needed. the ecu is calibrated for 91 octane. The ecu will only back off timing - it will not just advance it until it detects a ping so 100 octane will not give any power increase


The piston/rod assembly is the unit from a 6.1 hemi. Floating pin now. Stronger and better than the Gen 3 unit. That is the reason for the 1mm bore increase


74mm Throttle Bodies!


A new oil filter that will also work on all Vipers. Less pressure drop and better filtration. Napa filter was the base but a relief valve was added specific for the Dodge brand unit.


All metric bolts now


They have tuned an 8.4 motor to put out 675hp/650tq with some bolt-on performance parts

There are two major changes which required a lot of work: CAM and PCM (they call it now Venom Control). Especially the new VC device required a lot of work. It is a brand new computer built from ground by DC and Motorola. Both the hardware and the software are new. The new engine management program is able to handle 1000 times more signals than the old PCM. The Venom control is the basement of a new generation high tech Vipers.


DC has spent and still spends millions of dollars to develop this new Viper engine. The new engine should be highly reliable. All mechanical improvements are coming from race proven technologies. I think there are 5 dynos running full time this new engine. Believe me the new engine is highly tested. But really the challenge is the new Venom Control device and not the mechanical improvements. Engineers explained that they have done everything before deciding to replace the Old PCM from the early 90's.


Unfortunately the VC is so sophisticated that it will be harder for tuners to alter its signals. According to engineers the last GEN 3 vipers from 2006 should gain in value since they are the last generation Vipers with the old PCM. However they insured us that they will do their best to make performance Venom controllers available through Mopar.


The entire oiling system was upgraded. One of the DC engineers said "it was turbo charged". The oiling system was improved because it is responsible to provided high pressure oil to the cam positionning system. This requires also a special oil filter. If the oiling system was also very good before now its reliability got to the level of an F-16 airplane. All the technology used for the oiling system comes from race proven applications.

There is a sensor at the cockpit side of the engin checking if the cam is at the desired position. If not it will stop the engin. The oiling system and espetially the oil pan was modified such a way that the engin will never miss any oil no matter what you do.

The head was redesigned such a way that it could fit on a GEN 3 Viper ! It flows 23% more air than the 06 head ! Look for new parts at the Mopar counter !!!!

The block is the same but cylinders were bored 1mm larger. So 2008 pistons will not fit on a 2006 Viper.
 
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lamboman

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jun 14, 2006
248
Atlanta area
No, the new Viper won't have to beat the fastest recorded time, but it is the yardstick that is out there, and which comes to mind every time these comparisons come up. As far as Ranger's being the only fast one? Nope, there are quite a few guys over on the Forum running between 11.7 and 11.4 once they learned how to manage the conservative TM which makes it difficult to get a really hard launch. With 600HP the new Viper SHOULD beat the Z in a straight line due to a slightly better lb/HP ratio - if it really does so remains to be seen. As far as the Blue Devil not being shown at Detroit this year - no one expected it to be there. It is meaningless to insinuate something about the car b/c it was not at the show - it's a function of new models coming out in staggered fashion. If they do build the Blue Devil it should have the best lb/HP ratio of any of these cars when it is released. Will something better it in the following years? Probably.

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but the only comparison is SAME DRIVER, SAME TRACK, SAME CONDITION...with factory STOCK cars. No one cares what Ranger ran in his quicker than any other Z car..or what Lamboman ran in his quicker than any other SRT car. Head to head..equal everything. My Z06's are .3 quicker than my SRT's...(except for the worlds quickest stock srt). This is after running my 3 Z's and many SRT's on the same condition. The '08 will pick up .5-.8 over the '06 Viper. You can't minimize the tire factor..it is huge. Anyway...the first test will be reported end of next week. We will see. I hope they do produce the BD. It will only keep the wars alive.
 

analogdesigner

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Nov 15, 2005
949
San Clemente, CA USA
legal reasons???

Expect to see quite a few more vipers up on curbs. The overage Joe was having problems keeping the 500hp version in control. Know of two friends that have done so. Cant believe they dont equip these 500hp+ cars w traction control.
Is anyone aware of lawsuit(s) involving persons that have crashed their cars, claiming that their traction control had failed?

Just curious, Jay

http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34
 

HOGDEALER

GT Owner
Nov 19, 2005
24
Coos Bay, Oregon
lamboman

Great info. Thanks!!
 

everetto

GT Owner
Sep 4, 2006
186
Desert Southwest
No one cares what Ranger ran in his quicker than any other Z car..or what Lamboman ran in his quicker than any other SRT car. You can't minimize the tire factor..it is huge. Anyway...the first test will be reported end of next week. We will see. I hope they do produce the BD. It will only keep the wars alive.
Also not to beat a dead horse (which of course we are doing), Ranger will guarantee that his car is not special. How could he have gotten a special car when the car one receives is a random item? The fact is the Z is the first car conforming to the new SAE standard and although it has been beat to death - all the Z motors are within about 5 HP and the Society of Automotive Engineers guarantees that. This is crankshaft horsepower on a proper engine dyno in carefully controlled conditions - as opposed to the highly variable chassis dyno numbers we see across all makes of cars. My opinion is that Ranger could run within one or two tenths of his times in anyone's Z - mine or yours included.
My main point however, is that when the magazines start testing the current Z against any upcoming cars, Joe Blow, or any test driver limited to a few passes will have a much harder time bringing in a representative time with the Z (TM) than the Viper, or the GT, etc. You give the cars to a magazine and the driver gets to make a couple of passes and his time in a non-TM car will be "relatively" better (more representative of the car's actual power capabilities) than the TM car which requires many passes to optimize. True, this is built into the car, so the test on the surface is fair - but it poorly represents the Z in my opinion. In a quick search yesterday I found several time slips posted between 11.67 and 11.4 on stock tires for the Z, so when the magazines test it against the new Viper and they get a 12, it won't mean much to me.

I agree that the new Viper should beat the current Z by a tad due to its slightly better lb/HP;
Viper; 5.83 lb/HP
Z; 6.19 lb/HP

All I ask is that the Z is "fairly" represented, which will immediately be obivous when we see its time.
 

lamboman

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jun 14, 2006
248
Atlanta area
Also not to beat a dead horse.................

I agree that the new Viper should beat the current Z by a tad due to its slightly better lb/HP;
Viper; 5.83 lb/HP
Z; 6.19 lb/HP

All I ask is that the Z is "fairly" represented, which will immediately be obivous when we see its time.

It is a great time to be into GT'S/Vettes/Vipers. Bring the power on. The last of my endless analysis:

HP as a % to total vehicle weight. Using known RWHP averages.

05/06 FGT...............15.0% RWHP...using 510WHP
06/07 Z06...............14.1%.RWHP...using 450WHP
06 Viper..................12.9% RWHP...using 440WHP

08 Viper..................................15.8% RWHP...using 535WHP

Please ask those guys who own both a Viper and C6 Z06. All will tell you that the Z is faster...but not by a huge amount. I will continue to use the .3 in the quarter...because that is what I have seen on my cars...and at the strip in others cars. You can also improve the Vipers timeslip by doing many things that comes with experience. There are Z guys running 11.4/11.5 for sure...but there are SRT guys running 11.7/11.8 as well....and we are still at the .3 that I talk about. Take it to Rangers 11.2, and take my 11.5. Still .3. I will make a prediction that I will put the '08 Viper into the 10's...bone stock. It may take me a couple of months, but I will get it there. And my comment on Ranger is more the driver than the car. He also holds the record for the C5 Z06 I believe. But...these cars do vary in power...and there are good and bad ones. My first C6 Z dyno'd at 435...my current one at 451..on the same dyno. It is quicker than the other 2 I had, no doubt. Good debating the subject with you. Long live American Muscle.
 
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everetto

GT Owner
Sep 4, 2006
186
Desert Southwest
Good debating the subject with you. Long live American Muscle.

Well said, and it was good discussing things with you - always nice to be able to have a decent conversation rather than one of those common Internet debacles (which I too often am guilty of myself). I think your numbers are pretty fair, and I think we are actually pretty close on our ideas of the numbers. I also bet you will get your new Viper into the 10s.
:cheers
 

lamboman

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jun 14, 2006
248
Atlanta area
Well said, and it was good discussing things with you - always nice to be able to have a decent conversation rather than one of those common Internet debacles (which I too often am guilty of myself).

Thank you Everett. I myself have fallen into the internet debacle more times than I would like to remember. Again...great meeting you. A.J.
 

GT 1547

GT Owner
Dec 4, 2006
79
Vernal, UT
I have money down on the first Blue Devil (ZO7, SS, Sting Ray?) to hit Utah. Supposed to be summer 2008 if everything goes as planned. I currently have a C6 ZO6 and the GT. I have never timed either car but seat of the pants the ZO6 feels pretty close to the GT in acceration. Hopefully next year I will be able to tell you how the BD feels.
 

satx

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2005
197
Dana Point
Look for 0-60 in the 3.3-3.4 from Motor Tremd...quarter mile times below 11.5. RWHP is over 535. Actual crank HP is closer to 615.


I'm curious what trap speed we'll be seeing with 530+rwhp.....130MPH?
 

lamboman

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jun 14, 2006
248
Atlanta area
I'm curious what trap speed we'll be seeing with 530+rwhp.....130MPH?

That would be an excellent guess!!
 

jamie

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Sep 23, 2005
271
Virginia
As an owner of all three cars GT, Z06 and previous owner of several vipers including the first Heffner Supercharged one, there is a huge difference between the C6 Z06 and the current viper. The new vipers struggle to break into the elevens with a good driver, and my bone stock Z06 as delivered my first time ever at the track in the car ran consistent 11.3's at 128 with a best of 11.2 at 129, and I am sure 10's would be an easy task with drag radials. I think its very unlikely that the new viper will indeed be able to out run the Z06 and if does I will be very surprised! I know ranger and have raced with him on several occassions and although a good driver, not supernatural and neither am I, and the times posted represent what ANY Z06 with a capable driver can attain. The best time my GT was able to post as delivered was a 11.5 at 126.5 and I think that pretty good but the Z06 is just unreal!
 
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Pedalpusher

Member
Dec 10, 2006
7
Concord, NC
Can anyone explain why the C6 Z06 is so fast? Don't they usually make around 440 to 450 to the wheels? The GT (mine anyway) makes 535 whp, give or take a few. Shouldn't 80 or 90 horsepower, at the tire, and mid-engine traction, be able to overcome the Z's 300lb advantage?