No offense, but the NFGT engine - among current exotics, has the least exotic engine. Yes, there's a lot going on with suspension and the adaptation of the transmission and associated programming is not trivial. But the architecture of the motor and the control system borrows very heavily from the mass production "close cousins" of this engine. I stand by what I said before... a seemingly straightforward (and what looks to be an EASILY reproduceable) boost leak issue shouldn't require a car to be shipped to another city, state, or country to be diagnosed and fixed.
Surging issue, dumping boost around 12 psi
- Thread starter Special K
- Start date
italianjoe
Well-known member
No offence taken I enjoy these type of conversations. Frist the 3.5 eco boost in the NFGT is not the same as normal production cars and truck, infect the only thing they share is displacement. As far as its programming it may share some but not all the same as normal production cars and trucks, for instance mapping on the NFGT is so much different you can tell when you cold start a NFGT it's not the smoothest running car. As far as sending back to the factory I can see why its important to do this because if ford allow technician to alter settings it would be easy to set things at max and cause engine damage. I know it maybe an inconvenience to send a car back but the benefits to all as apposed to one car. My guess is ford will come out with a reflash to the P.C.M. and will benefit all owners and not just one car.
I didn't say the engines were the same. They're not. But as a matter of FACT, they share a whole lot more than displacement.
Back to the problem... I find it VERY doubtful that it is a programming error. My point is that if every NFGT has to go back to Multimatic for SIMPLE problems like this - it's a tragedy for everyone.
Back to the problem... I find it VERY doubtful that it is a programming error. My point is that if every NFGT has to go back to Multimatic for SIMPLE problems like this - it's a tragedy for everyone.
italianjoe
Well-known member
I understood your point however I'm pretty confident that the technician looking
italianjoe
Well-known member
I understood your point, however I Know the technician is this case was very thorough and no failed component was found so far. He has been working with engineers from ford and multimatic. I have had similar problems in the past where a "simple" tail lamp not working at times ended up being more then a tail lamp or module, And in my case of the tail lamps not working I have had to send a car back to multimatic where the company who made the tail lamps and modules worked with engineers from multimatic to find out that the mother board were to thin and with the amount of heat generated in the rear of the car, the mother board would flex and cause an open circuit. The fix was updating the modules with a thicker mother board and a heat shield around the module. So by sending the car back to the factory all NFGT were updated with new modules and heat shields. Again I do understand the frustration and I sympathize with the owners but not everything is as easy as you may think.
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italianjoe
Well-known member
Italiajoe - If we want to continue the discussion of the NFGT engine - and the commonality to more mass production 3.5 ecoboost engines, out of respect to the OP and his thread, I suggest that we start a new thread.
italianjoe
Well-known member
Always open for discussion and to learn as well.Italiajoe - If we want to continue the discussion of the NFGT engine - and the commonality to more mass production 3.5 ecoboost engines, out of respect to the OP and his thread, I suggest that we start a new thread.
I don’t mind, I’m learning a lot here too. But another direction to consider is that the engine is operating normally and the clutches are momentarily releasing while under load causing the computer to dump boost. We did change the waste gates, and they are a common part to other EcoBoost engines, but the issue remained. Also, it wasn’t that the technician couldn’t “figure it out,” but access to transmission diagnostics can only be accessed by Ford/MM. I’m hoping that when the cause is discovered, it will helps other owners as well.Italiajoe - If we want to continue the discussion of the NFGT engine - and the commonality to more mass production 3.5 ecoboost engines, out of respect to the OP and his thread, I suggest that we start a new thread.
Me too! Always room to learn.... but my wife and kids tell me that I'm so old I have a shelf memory.... when something new goes in, something else falls off! LOL
Joe, the NFGT shares a whole lot more than displacement with its mass produced cousins. According to Davie Pericak, 70% of the engine block and heads are in common with the 3.5 Ecoboost engines. In a different article, Raj stated (while referring to the engine in the Raptor), that 60% of the parts are in common with the NFGT engine. Both of these references are to the engine block and heads specifically and if we look at the numerous control systems (sensors, actuators, emissions control devices, etc) I'm sure we also can find a LOT of commonality.
But lets come back to the problem at hand....
For the life of me, I can't figure out why someone would pursue replacement of the wastegates in trying to diagnose what clearly? seems to be a release of boost pressure. Wastegates have nothing to do... at all... with bleeding boost pressure. Rather, the primary function of the wastegate(s) is to regulate exhaust gasses (not boost) passing into the turbo(s). By regulating these exhaust gasses, the wastegates can limit the amount of boost that the turbos can generate. Generally speaking, the engine systems are doing everything possible to maintain boost pressure. An uneven boost pressure would translate to a very "feelable" surging and it also makes engine management (AFR and timing) more challenging when it is not smooth and consistent. The OEMs typically do a very, very good job at this. The only time that boost pressure is dumped is in response to the driver's input of lifting off the go-pedal. So, you are at full throttle.... the turbos are at full song making maximum boost and suddenly the driver lifts the throttle and the throttle plate(s) are closed. That pressure now has no where to go..... hence the function of the blow-off valve.
OP - you have speculated that maybe the clutches are momentarily releasing and this is causing a release. I wouldn't think so. Shifting, particularly with DCT trannies is typically aided by engine management with a brief retard of timing. This is why you will often hear some nice popping in race cars as the quickly progress through the gears. However, boost is not dumped during a shift event. Consider that boost is kind of a precious commodity.... it's hard to get back. Although I don't know for a fact, I would doubt there's a plausible scenario of proactively releasing boost during shift events. (May be different at WOT when there's plenty of boost on-hand to almost instantly replace anything released.)
From you stated description and hearing the videos, my bet is on a faulty blow-off valve or a loose clamp or component in the charged side of the intake plumbing. I'm hoping we'll all know soon when you get this great car back in your hands!
Joe, the NFGT shares a whole lot more than displacement with its mass produced cousins. According to Davie Pericak, 70% of the engine block and heads are in common with the 3.5 Ecoboost engines. In a different article, Raj stated (while referring to the engine in the Raptor), that 60% of the parts are in common with the NFGT engine. Both of these references are to the engine block and heads specifically and if we look at the numerous control systems (sensors, actuators, emissions control devices, etc) I'm sure we also can find a LOT of commonality.
But lets come back to the problem at hand....
For the life of me, I can't figure out why someone would pursue replacement of the wastegates in trying to diagnose what clearly? seems to be a release of boost pressure. Wastegates have nothing to do... at all... with bleeding boost pressure. Rather, the primary function of the wastegate(s) is to regulate exhaust gasses (not boost) passing into the turbo(s). By regulating these exhaust gasses, the wastegates can limit the amount of boost that the turbos can generate. Generally speaking, the engine systems are doing everything possible to maintain boost pressure. An uneven boost pressure would translate to a very "feelable" surging and it also makes engine management (AFR and timing) more challenging when it is not smooth and consistent. The OEMs typically do a very, very good job at this. The only time that boost pressure is dumped is in response to the driver's input of lifting off the go-pedal. So, you are at full throttle.... the turbos are at full song making maximum boost and suddenly the driver lifts the throttle and the throttle plate(s) are closed. That pressure now has no where to go..... hence the function of the blow-off valve.
OP - you have speculated that maybe the clutches are momentarily releasing and this is causing a release. I wouldn't think so. Shifting, particularly with DCT trannies is typically aided by engine management with a brief retard of timing. This is why you will often hear some nice popping in race cars as the quickly progress through the gears. However, boost is not dumped during a shift event. Consider that boost is kind of a precious commodity.... it's hard to get back. Although I don't know for a fact, I would doubt there's a plausible scenario of proactively releasing boost during shift events. (May be different at WOT when there's plenty of boost on-hand to almost instantly replace anything released.)
From you stated description and hearing the videos, my bet is on a faulty blow-off valve or a loose clamp or component in the charged side of the intake plumbing. I'm hoping we'll all know soon when you get this great car back in your hands!
Everything you say makes sense, but one other thing to consider that I might not have previously said is that when this event happens you can feel a shutter almost like a clutch slipping.
italianjoe
Well-known member
Kevin, told you before my door is always open and you can work along side of me anytime, I'm sure we can both learn a thing or two
. Back to the issuse, that was very observant of you to feel the shudder and will be helpful with diagnosis, And yes it sucks that we are not able to monitor transmission clutch pids. It took me over a year and half to get me into the VDM (vehicle dynamics module) so I can monitor pids for the hydraulic system. You may have a good point with the clutch but I don't think the manufacturer of the transmission will allow ford or multimatic to dissemble a transmission to find the root cause. They will more then likely send data to the manufacturer of the transmission and if they see something they will call it back or send out a reflash.
Good job Kevin.
Thanks Joe, I’m very thankful for you, Bryan, Kendall and others for the support and confidence to maintain my car into the foreseeable future. I know many owners can feel intimidated by the complexity of the car and cost of ownership outside of warranty, but I have no plans on selling my car and it is reassuring, to say the least, to have your experience to fall back on.Kevin, told you before my door is always open and you can work along side of me anytime, I'm sure we can both learn a thing or two
Back to the issuse, that was very observant of you to feel the shudder and will be helpful with diagnosis, And yes it sucks that we are not able to monitor transmission clutch pids. It took me over a year and half to get me into the VDM (vehicle dynamics module) so I can monitor pids for the hydraulic system. You may have a good point with the clutch but I don't think the manufacturer of the transmission will allow ford or multimatic to dissemble a transmission to find the root cause. They will more then likely send data to the manufacturer of the transmission and if they see something they will call it back or send out a reflash.
Good job Kevin.
italianjoe
Well-known member
Sorry I did not forget about you. I will get back to your comments. Just been busy today. Have a good night.
italianjoe
Well-known member
Ok so lets talk about this, if we are talking about the Engine then both the NFGT and Raptor engine should share the same part numbers correct? when in reality when you look up a bare block, head's, crankshaft, piston rods, ect. the NFGT has its own part number, so if they share the same engine parts then why are the part numbers different? we already know from a previous thread i posted spec's on the NFGT and Raptor engine and we know that the NFGT has lower compression ratio. so they would have changed the crank, rods, and pistons to do that. 2nd we know that the Raptor is a wet sump oil system and the NFGT is a dry sump oil system one has internal oil pump and the other is external and modification to the block had to be made to accomplish this, so is it the same block? same thing with the heads, the NFGT part number is different then a Raptor engine why? i can't confirm it at this time but the NFGT looks to have bigger Valves, so does this make a shared part from a Raptor? So when someone says they share the same parts as another Ecoboost Engine then i guess its how you look at it. If by same you mean taking a current ecoboot engine and modifying it then ok, but for me when I hear "share" my first thought is they are the same as its cousin. So my point to all of this is I don't want owners to think they can go and get a set of heads and a block off a Raptor and it will bolt on to there NFGT and perform the same way. As for the sensor's and actuator's then yes they do. some have a ford part number and others will have a NFGT part number. I have read all the articles written on the NFGT, And I know lot of people who were involved in the project and i'm sure they were not misleading any thing about this car and were trying to promote the ecoboost technology.
italianjoe
Well-known member
Ok so lets talk about this one, in the almost 40 years i have been doing this i never say never, the reason is what should make sense at times never does. For the tech and engineers to try a replacement part is not uncommon and sometimes part of the diagnosis process, and helps to eliminate the possibility and can move to the next step, in the field we call it "replace with known good". As far as turbo operation you are 95% correct the one part after its at max boost and driver lifts off the throttle yes blow off valves release pressure in the charge side but we also keep the throttle plates open a bit to help relived the pressure as well. We have had a few NFGT in the past have sticking Throttle plates causing air charge tubes to blow off. So again its not always easy to find some issues and some time trial and error is called for but one thing for sure, between Ford and Multimatic they assembled a good team of engineers and technician's to service and find these odd issue's.
BtwoG
GT Owner
The car was picked up yesterday and delivered to the GT tech in Chattanooga. I'll keep this thread posted on any findings.
Note that the owner of the dealer is selling his GT as well, and they say they will likely not continue to service GTs.
Note that the owner of the dealer is selling his GT as well, and they say they will likely not continue to service GTs.
GKW05GT
GT Owner
Hope this dealer has a qualified mechanic that had a clue what’s going on. It appears these people are few and far between and an ongoing issue for those of us keeping our cars.
Multimatic is digging into it as we speak and might have found a cause. I’ll wait to post until it is confirmed.