Road & Track rebuttal

[Bart Carter]

This test was conducted in Italy as a joint test with the Italian magazine Quattroroute. One downside was that the Ferrari F430 and Lamborghini Gallardo were shod with tires that are a factory option in Italy, but not an option in the U.S. The Pirelli Corsa tires are considered DOT race rubber. A street-legal race tire, if you will. They are probably the most track-worthy of the group we tested. Being a track-oriented tire, the biggest benefit is that they handle heat loading well and can complete more laps than the others, but a cooler temperatures may not work as well. The Porsche Turbo’s Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires wore out the quickest and one might therefore think they were the softest and stickiest.
The point is, though, that none of these cars had bad tires, just that the Ferrari and Lamborghini may have had a leg up while doing track laps. But if they had performance gains elsewhere, it doesn’t really show up in the data. For those who are concerned that it gave the Ferrari and Lamborghini an advantage, realize that we ran faster times when we last tested them with stock U.S.-spec tires.

Really, Shaun. Well let’s just look a little closer at what you are saying.

This test was conducted in Italy as a joint test with the Italian magazine Quattroroute.

Didn’t that give you your first clue to look for a “little” bias?

One downside was that the Ferrari F430 and Lamborghini Gallardo were shod with tires that are a factory option in Italy, but not an option in the U.S. The Pirelli Corsa tires are considered DOT race rubber. A street-legal race tire, if you will. They are probably the most track-worthy of the group we tested.

So without even a mention that the Italian cars were on race rubber and the other cars were on street rubber, you proceed to praise the handling of the Italian cars. Having many miles on the track myself, I can tell you for a fact that even the best street rubber doesn’t compare to race rubber. “Probably”? Way to minimize your admittance that the test was biased. Did you also know that Hoosier and Ford worked together to provide a DOT tire for the Ford GT? But that would be comparing apples to apples.

Being a track-oriented tire, the biggest benefit is that they handle heat loading well and can complete more laps than the others, but a cooler temperatures may not work as well. The Porsche Turbo’s Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires wore out the quickest and one might therefore think they were the softest and stickiest.

No, the biggest benefit is the handling. But a nice try at deflection. I belong to a racing club, Spring Mountain Motorsports. They also have Corvette and Radical racing schools. One of the members with a F430 was running laps with a new Z06. When the F430 was on street rubber, it couldn’t keep up with the Z06. When switched to DOT rubber, the Z06 couldn’t keep up. Now there is an accurate comparison!

The point is, though, that none of these cars had bad tires, just that the Ferrari and Lamborghini may have had a leg up while doing track laps.

Again, the use of “may” is a great way to back peddle without admitting your errors. And wasn’t this comparison basically with track laps?

For those who are concerned that it gave the Ferrari and Lamborghini an advantage, realize that we ran faster times when we last tested them with stock U.S.-spec tires.

I love this sentence. You offer absolutely no tech and draw a conclusion to support your stance. What do you mean by “ran faster times”? Bring’em on and I will let you know where your conclusion is wrong on that too.

So, pretty hard to admit that you did a featured cover story that had no validity, isn’t it? At least your biggest competitor lets us know when a test car comes with DOT rubber.

 

[davisp]

Amen Bart. I hope that the forum members understand what is really going on in the "Road and Track magazine" world? The fact is, that it is not a whole lot different than what is going on in the "political" world ...... Careful attention to the written word can make all the difference!! :bs :bs

 

[dbtgt]

Excellent analysis, Bart! A huge foul for which they deserve to eat some s--t (uh, er Crow)! Well done! :thumbsup

 

[B O N Y]

bravo Bart!

 

[BlackICE]

Anyone that has been on the track with street tires and race tires knows there is a HUGH difference. Tires and suspension setup are the biggest factor to the performance of cars that car close in performance like the GT and its Italian competition. Who knows the other cars had suspension treaks for the track too. Road and Track editors are either dumb and ignorant, or just what to mislead its readers. I think it is the later!

BlackICE

 

[canuck]

In Sept. issue of car & driver. On a 1.6 mile track in Europe the results were the z06 was the fastest on f1 eagles. The 997tt was second on cup 2 and the 430 last. The magazine made the observation that the 430 didn't have the Pirelli's and was disadvantaged by this. Love the irony!

 

[50 BMG]

Road and Track editors are either dumb and ignorant, or just what to mislead its readers. I think it is the later!

+1

 

[STUNTS]

so........... The GT still kicks a-s right? :cheers

 

[canuck]

Oh Yah !!!

 

[Fubar]

Nice rebuttal but does the R&T guy know about this? It seems unfair to just say your argument is better. Send him a link and see if he has the balls to respond.

If he doesn't, I hear Motortrend likes american cars.

 

[canuck]

Bottom line is Ferrari doesn't want to hear that some else makes a better car than them and certainly doesn't want that published to if you want Ferrari to lend you a car for comparison it had better win if they are going to continue to lend you one. They will often times give a car to the media but are pretty tight in the activities of the day that they coordinate so as not to allow comparisons. Owner don't lend their car to journalists to be punished and certainly don't lend their car out to see it come in at anything but first. The American Magazines will forever make an excuse even though the 430 doesn't put up as good as numbers as to why it always wins in comparisons,eg. no the pirelli tires. To get the best 0-60 numbers you need to get the "special code" that you aren't allowed because frankly the car can't keep doing those starts without beaking down but for the sake of producing the good 0-60 # will tell it to a select few to put up those #.etc etc etc. That is why my respect for European car journalists has sky rocketed with me compared to North American reports. Evo recently took a convertable 430 and a convertable gallardo and ranked the gallardo #1. The 430 was courtesy of the P1. Evo ranked the GT # 1 . That is what convinced me that the GT was the right car for me. Oh and J. Clarkson wetting himself.

 

[SLF360]

Important message from Ferrari country

Folks,

P zero corsa are the best tyres if you want to go fast on track and clean fairly heated (or should I say not cold, you know what I intend) prime road asphalt. It is simply unfair to compare , and consider the car performed, not the rubber. the reason the Enzo is slow vs the MC 12 is the Maserati comes with Pirelli P zero corsa, and the Enzo with Bridgestones. I can (and have) actually overtake Enzos in Fiorano on the Ferrari track with my Challenge Stradale (you guessed it, P zero corsas). The Spider I have also tracked with Bridgestones, and boy at some point they are cooked and go where they want.
The Gt is with fairly good tyres I must say. Ahead of the bridgestone, but not comparable to the Pirelli superstars. The P zero corsa are true intermediates race tyres, trust me on that one. If the format is soon available for the GT I would change, no doubt.

last Sunday at a ferrari picknick here I came with the GT. together with 30 or so ferraris, guess which car was the most admired by all present. People I took for a ride just wetted themselves, period. Some where more shocked about the performance that stunned. The torque curve and power just blows up a regular ferrari pilot. Close to 7000rpm they expect more an explosion than a slick shift up. Mind you the torque starts blasting at 1500 revvs, so it is simply a mindf**k effect, when you come from Ferrari and then sit right next to a (may I say daring) GT pilot, that knows his car and how to handle everything out of it.

Honestly:
Ferrari People in 2006 are equally impressed as Ferrari people were in 1966 ! :biggrin

I that have the GT and also the F430 (and interestingly it is sold with BRIDGESTONES !!!, so why put P zero corsas on them for testing...? :thumbsdow )tell you, turn the uglier of the two keys for ultimate pleasure ... As Chris said it, the F430 is a great car if you are going on a date ..
very true


let's leave it there,
NOTHING beats driving the GT in Italy in terms of spectacularity and admiration (as long as it's not red, I guess no surprise either :wink ..)

Stefan

 

[SLF360]

Bottom line is Ferrari doesn't want to hear that some else makes a better car than them and certainly doesn't want that published to if you want Ferrari to lend you a car for comparison

They are both two great cars, with significant differences and different intentions. Anyone else here that has both wants to contribute !? Florida Chris, amico, what ya think !?

Stefan

 

[canuck]

Honest truth is I have a 430 on order at MSRP. If I didn't think it was a great car I would not have ordered one. Unfortunately I cannot afford both. The 430 was ordered/put on a waiting list before I go the GT. In fact I put myself on the list because it wasn't looking like I would get a GT and I wanted to own one supercar in my lifetime. To my delight I scored a gt which was my first choice. Now within the next year I will probably be getting a phone call for the final order on the 430. So for those of you who own both a GT and ferrari 430 would you give up the gt for a ferrari 430? That is the real question.


Small other point. My nearest dealer for Ferrari's is 24hrs away by car. I will have to change the oil and when something goes wrong I won't see the car for weeks and the driving season unless I drive it in the winter is 6 months. Ford dealer is 5 minutes away. There are also plenty of dealers in town and the one I got the gt from is unbelievable. Excellent service, incredible integrity and very accommodating. An oil change on the GT costs 50% compared to the competitors and they readjusted the agreed purchase price on the GT without a peep out of me after the car arrived and they found they misquoted the MSRP by a few grand. What is that worth?!?!?

 

[B O N Y]

Honest truth is I have a 430 on order at MSRP. If I didn't think it was a great car I would not have ordered one. Unfortunately I cannot afford both. The 430 was ordered/put on a waiting list before I go the GT. In fact I put myself on the list because it wasn't looking like I would get a GT and I wanted to own one supercar in my lifetime. To my delight I scored a gt which was my first choice. Now within the next year I will probably be getting a phone call for the final order on the 430. So for those of you who own both a GT and ferrari 430 would you give up the gt for a ferrari 430? That is the real question.


Small other point. My nearest dealer for Ferrari's is 24hrs away by car. I will have to change the oil and when something goes wrong I won't see the car for weeks and the driving season unless I drive it in the winter is 6 months. Ford dealer is 5 minutes away. There are also plenty of dealers in town and the one I got the gt from is unbelievable. Excellent service, incredible integrity and very accommodating. An oil change on the GT costs 50% compared to the competitors and they readjusted the agreed purchase price on the GT without a peep out of me after the car arrived and they found they misquoted the MSRP by a few grand. What is that worth?!?!?

sounds like you answered your on question.

there will be an F car to follow the 430, the GT is the end of the line...sadly.

 

[B O N Y]

Folks,

P zero corsa are the best tyres if you want to go fast on track and clean fairly heated (or should I say not cold, you know what I intend) prime road asphalt. It is simply unfair to compare , and consider the car performed, not the rubber. the reason the Enzo is slow vs the MC 12 is the Maserati comes with Pirelli P zero corsa, and the Enzo with Bridgestones. I can (and have) actually overtake Enzos in Fiorano on the Ferrari track with my Challenge Stradale (you guessed it, P zero corsas). The Spider I have also tracked with Bridgestones, and boy at some point they are cooked and go where they want.
The Gt is with fairly good tyres I must say. Ahead of the bridgestone, but not comparable to the Pirelli superstars. The P zero corsa are true intermediates race tyres, trust me on that one. If the format is soon available for the GT I would change, no doubt.




as always, a great post my friend. :thumbsup

last Sunday at a ferrari picknick here I came with the GT. together with 30 or so ferraris, guess which car was the most admired by all present. People I took for a ride just wetted themselves, period. Some where more shocked about the performance that stunned. The torque curve and power just blows up a regular ferrari pilot. Close to 7000rpm they expect more an explosion than a slick shift up. Mind you the torque starts blasting at 1500 revvs, so it is simply a mindf**k effect, when you come from Ferrari and then sit right next to a (may I say daring) GT pilot, that knows his car and how to handle everything out of it.

Honestly:
Ferrari People in 2006 are equally impressed as Ferrari people were in 1966 ! :biggrin

I that have the GT and also the F430 (and interestingly it is sold with BRIDGESTONES !!!, so why put P zero corsas on them for testing...? :thumbsdow )tell you, turn the uglier of the two keys for ultimate pleasure ... As Chris said it, the F430 is a great car if you are going on a date ..
very true


let's leave it there,
NOTHING beats driving the GT in Italy in terms of spectacularity and admiration (as long as it's not red, I guess no surprise either :wink ..)

Stefan

as always a great post... guess I will be getting P Zero's when I replace my Eagles :banana

 

[Bart Carter]

as always a great post... guess I will be getting P Zero's when I replace my Eagles :banana

Were it that easy. The P Zeros (and their equivalent, Michelin Pilot Sport Cups) are not currently in our sizes. Maybe Pirelli or Michelin will offer them later.

 

[SLF360]

So for those of you who own both a GT and ferrari 430 would you give up the gt for a ferrari 430?


Small other point. My nearest dealer for Ferrari's is 24hrs away by car.

First one: No, always would choose GT over 430, my personal call - after mods.

Second: My nearest ferrari dealer is 7 minutes away. My reference GT service dealer is in geneva, that is 8 hours away, in another country. So my GT is serviced by the Ferrari guys. As they have a strong racing department (were World champions in the past, plus many times Italian champs) , the techs are keen on it.
I guess that's pure Italian passion: they love my GT and speak only highly of it.

They even told me, they think I've done a great 'investimento'. Now how is that !? :thumbsup

Stefan

 

[canuck]

You are probably right bony. But is reassuring to hear it form SLF 360. Thanks Stefan, I appreciate the post.

 

[Red Rocket]

Hey there Canuck! I like all cars for what they are - I don't think I'm biased. But I had the good fortune to get to decide between the Lambos, Ferraris, the Porsches or the GT this past spring and chose I the GT. I have no regrets - actually I am still blown away by all the positive vibes one gets from Everybody re the GT. Every day I drive it is a day filled with smiles from everyone - not many cars generate that kind of vibe! Certainly that's something I have not experienced with any of the other exotics I have owned. Pure and simple the GT is not only a crowd pleaser (and will be forever as the years roll by) but also an incredibly pleasing car to drive.

Another huge factor in owning most exotic supercars is that you really should not buy one unless you know for certain there is a good technician available nearby, because without that you will be very stranded WHEN (not if) your new exotic breaks down. (I have posted comments re my experiences with them in other threads around this site FYI).

Further, if this helps, I let my buddy the local Lambo dealer drive the car and he was blown away by it. He was really impressed, and he's driven everything.

Last if I may say so, thanks to you Bart for posting your rebuttal and I hope that R&T sees it - I sent them a note also because in addition to what you wrote, one sees that R&T's performance numbers are way off what other periodicals posted for the production version of the GT, while I think R&T still uses their results from the pre-production 500HP prototype back from 2003! That's unfair. And poor journalism if true.

Also Stefan - right on! I have been to a few gatherings with other supercars over the Summer, and everyone leaves them to rush over and look at the GT. It's everyone's favorite car. I think its because it is easily the best looking closed car made after the 1963 Ferrari GTO. And after all, the GT40 was the mid-engine car that all the others afterwards have been trying to copy since 1966. It truly is The One!