Has anyone done this on any cars? I realize there is no downside but I am looking for proven results before I write the check.
Balanced Camshaft?
- Thread starter Fubar
- Start date
BlackICE
GT Owner
Downsides cost $$$
Upsides ???
My guess is that the radius is so small and the RPM slow (1/2 crankshaft) that balancing them doesn't add much gains other than more cost to produce them.
Upsides ???
My guess is that the radius is so small and the RPM slow (1/2 crankshaft) that balancing them doesn't add much gains other than more cost to produce them.
Empty Pockets
ex-GT Owner
It's a fairly pricey way to gain about, what, 0-3 hp?...and that gain would be seen only at pretty high RPMs, would it not?:shrug
It would get rid of cam-created harmonics of course, but it won't stop valve spring float, or rocker 'flutter' (or push rod deformation in p-rod engines). It would eliminate the transference of cam-related harmonics into the 'springs though, I should think...and that would be a good thing! 'Springs already have enough to deal with there! (I seem to remember waaay back, that some race teams [Indy-type cars I believe] traced their cam breakage to unbalanced cams - but, I could be wrong.)
I'd only 'go for it' my own darn self if I'd done everything else and was looking to squeeze absolutely every darn pony and every dime's worth of reliability I could from the mill.
'Just my non-engineer $.02.
It would get rid of cam-created harmonics of course, but it won't stop valve spring float, or rocker 'flutter' (or push rod deformation in p-rod engines). It would eliminate the transference of cam-related harmonics into the 'springs though, I should think...and that would be a good thing! 'Springs already have enough to deal with there! (I seem to remember waaay back, that some race teams [Indy-type cars I believe] traced their cam breakage to unbalanced cams - but, I could be wrong.)
I'd only 'go for it' my own darn self if I'd done everything else and was looking to squeeze absolutely every darn pony and every dime's worth of reliability I could from the mill.
'Just my non-engineer $.02.
2112
Blue/white 06'
How expensive are they?
Can't be much worse than a roller lifter Big Block Ford with roller cam journals and a 351 Windsor Firing order. :frown
Can't be much worse than a roller lifter Big Block Ford with roller cam journals and a 351 Windsor Firing order. :frown
I am sure you will find no one on here that has done it, unless they have a high end IMPORT LOL.....Roush does it to there Cobra Jet motors and John does it to his higher dollar builds. All the money you've spent and your going to question this mod by one of the best in this business? Gettin rid of any harmonics or vibration in the valve train is always a plus, I will eventually have a set of balanced cam shafts but I do not now....What does John say they are worth for power or r they purely for reliability of valve train?
John didn't suggest this in the beginning oh the process. Now that we are dealing with the cam he suggests it as an option. The price isn't out of line 600 for 4 cams but these don't spin that fast. The only gain I might see, from reading Internet pages is some extended durability.
I thought you were the best? I am asking because I don't know the answer, not because I doubt John ability. I would just like to hear from people here who have been in my boat... Would you balance the cams?
2112
Blue/white 06'
Removing Harmonics from the valvetrain is worth the cost in my opinion. Keeping the upper end calm doesn't add power per se' but it makes everything last longer.
Don't ask how much I spent $ finding that out on big push rod motors. :frown
Don't ask how much I spent $ finding that out on big push rod motors. :frown
LOL I'm a rookie, just bustin your balls and I do stuff all the time that John tells me not todo..haha I have a date writen down where he told me something im doing isnt going to work, he said remember the day and I got it implanted in my head.. SO WE WILL C HEHE. Anyways I don't know of anyone doing it other than Roush on the Cobra Jet stuff and John. If I was looking for an answer on it, the first place I would check is with the supra guys as they turn those things high rpms and they would be the only ones I would think that would spend the money todo this. I can see if my guy at Roush will give me any insight on the benifits. They turn those Cobra Jet motors over 8000rpms, I also have another place for info and I will post there too.
And Yes I would do it, I just haven't yet!
MoTeC Magic
Spectator
Hi Guys,
We've had 2.5L 4cyl turbo methanol engines that turn 12,000 RPM and produced 1,600 hp...and didn't balance the cams. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been and or that it wouldn't have helped.
If I had to do it again, and knowing what I know now... the balance thought process of the cams would have started with our design of the billet cores. I think it's important. Will it make or break the valve train... probably not. But the little bit that I understand about vibration, I believe eliminating any of it is beneficial.
Does it have to be done in your situation Mark? No... Is reducing vibration good, yes... Would you motor benefit from reduced valve train vibration, probably... will it be a world changing modification, no. I think it comes down to peace of mind and knowing that what you did is beneficial to the motor regardless of perceived results. I think you just have to justify to yourself if it's worth the $600 ($150 per cam). There is no doubt it is beneficial to the motor and should be done if money were not the question.
I'd do it but.... You set the value... your call.
We've had 2.5L 4cyl turbo methanol engines that turn 12,000 RPM and produced 1,600 hp...and didn't balance the cams. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been and or that it wouldn't have helped.
If I had to do it again, and knowing what I know now... the balance thought process of the cams would have started with our design of the billet cores. I think it's important. Will it make or break the valve train... probably not. But the little bit that I understand about vibration, I believe eliminating any of it is beneficial.
Does it have to be done in your situation Mark? No... Is reducing vibration good, yes... Would you motor benefit from reduced valve train vibration, probably... will it be a world changing modification, no. I think it comes down to peace of mind and knowing that what you did is beneficial to the motor regardless of perceived results. I think you just have to justify to yourself if it's worth the $600 ($150 per cam). There is no doubt it is beneficial to the motor and should be done if money were not the question.
I'd do it but.... You set the value... your call.
Flatrod
GT Owner
As a guy that balances stuff all the time, I have never heard of balancing cams. I have however balanced cam gears in the past. I'll have to spin a cam up and see what is what with one. I just wonder how they do it. How do you take weight off or how do you add weight. Being so close to center line, I would think its not going to make much difference.
H
HHGT
Guest
Empty Pockets
ex-GT Owner
"Correcting the unbalanced camshaft can be achieved by several methods. The first is to modify the timing gear by removing or adding material as specified by the balancing machine. The second is to remove weight from the core of the main bearing area or add weight by first drilling holes into the main bearing and replacing it with heavy metal.
Another option is to drill holes in the butt of the cam and possibly add heavy metal, or to add external weight to the shaft itself. This can be achieved by using an adaptor that is added to the rear of that shaft which locates a counter weight that is modified for the require amount to balance the assembly, or, given the cam design and spacing between lobes, clamp-on counterweights between cam journals."
H
HHGT
Guest
the only article I have found is this http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_0603_cam_shaft_balancing/index.html
It looks like a few race teams have been doing it for a while but the results are very hush hush. John claims it helps hold his big power motors together and I believe him. I just think he is spinning the bajesus out of those motors and I don’t plan on going past 8k rpm... unless the power curve looks like a ramp and A/F and spark all look solid, then I might MIGHT go to 8.5k. It still looks like there are no measurable benefits until you hit 10k rpm. However, for $600, I will probably just write the damn check and do it anyway. It usually pays to listen to people who know more than me. i.e.: Fish has me doing a MoTeC with knock sensor and a nutty fuel system. As long as it hold together, I’ll be happy. I have won more than one race because the other guy car didn’t hold together.
H
HHGT
Guest
Didn't someone post about the Coyote motors possibly revving above 10K RPMs. If that is the case then Ford should have some metrics on this (Trade secret?). The simplest way to find out is to get a Coyote Cam and send it out for a Balance Test.
H
HHGT
Guest
Good point on the gears balancing as well Fubar. Is Jon going to balance the gears? It seems it would be a waste to balance the Cam and not balance the Gears!
True, I read in that article that there are several ways to go about harmonic damping in the valve train, even the chain can be balanced. Where do you stop?