End of ethanol?

[HHGT]

The United States has ended a 30-year tax subsidy for corn-based ethanol that cost taxpayers $6 billion annually, and ended a tariff on imported Brazilian ethanol.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/...148/auto01/Congress-ends-corn-ethanol-subsidy

No Politics.

 

[2112]

Good news for the country as a whole.

 

[BlackICE]

Great news! How about the rest of the farm subsidies?

 

[Mullet]

I think it will spell the end of ethanol sooner or later. If it's the same price as other gas and gets 15-20% lower gas mileage people will slowly stop using it.

 

[BlackICE]

I think it will spell the end of ethanol sooner or later. If it's the same price as other gas and gets 15-20% lower gas mileage people will slowly stop using it.

Except for the fact that some DUMB states have essentially mandated the used of ethanol!

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/faq.htm

 

[Mullet]

Except for the fact that some DUMB states have mandated the used of ethanol!

I'm not talking about how they mix it with gas (they do in Texas). E85 I think is doomed if it's the same cost as unleaded.

 

[BlackICE]

I'm not talking about how they mix it with gas (they do in Texas). E85 I think is doomed if it's the same cost as unleaded.

Assuming that you have the right fuel system and tune the the fact that you can get more HP with E85 that premium pump gas, but probably not enough demand to keep it available. There are not too many E85 dealers in NorCal.

 

[jaxgt]

The ethanol additives are REALLY bad for old cars, as the rubber diaphragms and such tend to disintegrate from it. Had 2 of my antique Caddies (1939, 1958) strand me this year due to failing fuel pumps. When the pumps were removed and taken apart, both had their rubber diaphragms dissolved, most likely from ethanol. Fortunately, I found a ethanol free pump about 10 minutes from my house. Use it for all the old cars, and will use it, or race gas, on the GT.

 

[Mullet]

Assuming that you have the right fuel system and tune the the fact that you can get more HP with E85 that premium pump gas, but probably not enough demand to keep it available. There are not too many E85 dealers in NorCal.

I only use E85 in my wife's Escalade and do not use it in my high hp cars as I am sure 99.99999% of the drivers out there are the same. E85 is a "regular car" type of fuel. It just happens to be able to get good hp numbers for cars that are tuned for it (a VERY small percentage). The "regular cars" will dictate if it stays around.

 

[B.M.F.]

I only use E85 in my wife's Escalade and do not use it in my high hp cars as I am sure 99.99999% of the drivers out there are the same. E85 is a "regular car" type of fuel. It just happens to be able to get good hp numbers for cars that are tuned for it (a VERY small percentage). The "regular cars" will dictate if it stays around.

R you saying a small percentage of fast street cars use E85? I know for a fact, that the Mustang, Camaro and Corvette market use ALOT OF E85 and that number is climbing....One of my very good friends who started/was a major progressor in the E85 trend in 2005 has done over 3500 vehicles on E85 since then. There are a ton of tuners now tuning on e85 all over the world. Yes in the GT market, lambo market not very many, Ugr did a car thou that made 1372rwhp but ran out of fuel pumps. You go on auto forums these days and look at a persons sig and it says they are on e85, forums have sections for E85 tech. Its huge, Drag racers, even bracket racers are more and more using e85. All the Major Race fuel companies have E85 blend now.

I would agree the that the regular cars are what keep it around, but it has paved the way for fast street cars for an alternative fuel in the last 5 years. You can not beat it or its abilities as a fuel.

I used winter blend E72 and Made 1259rwhp with it and would have no problem running the mile with the car with out blowing it up. Most people laugh at the stuff and say how its junk, most people dont understand its abilities until someone does something big with it. You can not beat it even if it uses 30% more fuel on a high performance car versus gas. ON a Properly tuned Na Oem Vehicle E85 is able to come within 1 cent per mile of Gasoline....Gm, Ford and Dodge do not have calibrations that are anywhere near close to being effiecent for fuel use of it. They could but they do not. We reprogram them all the time. You can run a E85 vehicle much leaner than a gas vehicle due to the Ethonal content and the fact that they will not detonate. The oe's do not capitalize on this and that is why milage suffers from them. We have 427 ls1 vettes that get 26mph on the stuff Na with 520rwhp. Anyways time will tell, so we will have to wait and c what happens.

 

[Mullet]

R you saying a small percentage of fast street cars use E85? I know for a fact, that the Mustang, Camaro and Corvette market use ALOT OF E85 and that number is climbing....One of my very good friends who started/was a major progressor in the E85 trend in 2005 has done over 3500 vehicles on E85 since then. There are a ton of tuners now tuning on e85 all over the world. Yes in the GT market, lambo market not very many, Ugr did a car thou that made 1372rwhp but ran out of fuel pumps. You go on auto forums these days and look at a persons sig and it says they are on e85, forums have sections for E85 tech. Its huge, Drag racers, even bracket racers are more and more using e85. All the Major Race fuel companies have E85 blend now.

I would agree the that the regular cars are what keep it around, but it has paved the way for fast street cars for an alternative fuel in the last 5 years. You can not beat it or its abilities as a fuel.

I used winter blend E72 and Made 1259rwhp with it and would have no problem running the mile with the car with out blowing it up. Most people laugh at the stuff and say how its junk, most people dont understand its abilities until someone does something big with it. You can not beat it even if it uses 30% more fuel on a high performance car versus gas. ON a Properly tuned Na Oem Vehicle E85 is able to come within 1 cent per mile of Gasoline....Gm, Ford and Dodge do not have calibrations that are anywhere near close to being effiecent for fuel use of it. They could but they do not. We reprogram them all the time. You can run a E85 vehicle much leaner than a gas vehicle due to the Ethonal content and the fact that they will not detonate. The oe's do not capitalize on this and that is why milage suffers from them. We have 427 ls1 vettes that get 26mph on the stuff Na with 520rwhp. Anyways time will tell, so we will have to wait and c what happens.

I'm saying a small percentage of E85 sales is for performance cars. I'm sure millions of gallons a day are sold of E85 and the amount of those sales that go into high performance cars is VERY small.

 

[Fubar]

I like E85 as it is fantastic fuel for HP. Unfortunately manufacturers have never really exploited that by building smaller, lighter engines that can make more power with E85. It could have equated to better gas millage but reality just didn’t pan out that way. Ethanol manufacturing has come a long way sense the project began 30 years ago, but I think it still takes more energy to make it than it produces. Methanol may be a more realistic option in the future, only time will tell.

 

[MAD IN NC]

If you are looking for "Pure Gas" go to this site..

http://pure-gas.org/ for state by state listing of ethanol free locations...

 

[Fracman]

If you are looking for "Pure Gas" go to this site..

http://pure-gas.org/ for state by state listing of ethanol free locations...

Thanks for posting this. It looks like I am sol in the major Texas cities but will check for updates.

 

[ChipBeck]

Gentlemen,

I am the biggest independent retailer of E-85 in Arizona. That isn't saying much as I only sell about 25,000 gallons a month. Arizona law mandates that taxi cabs servicing the Phoenix International Airport use alternative fuels and for most of them that means E-85. The cab drivers hate it and report a 25 to 30% drop in fuel mileage which makes sense as Ethanol only has 65% as much energy per gallon as gasoline. Though it is low on energy content, it doesn't detonate easily so it's octane is very high (about 120 I believe). So to make big power with it you need monster fuel pumps and injectors to flow large volumes of that swill. E-85 is highly corrosive and so I must use all stainless steel pumps, impellers, piping, and nozzles. It also, unlike gasoline, soaks up water like a sponge. Condensation will sit on the bottom of my gasoline tanks (below the fuel pickup going to the pumps) and from time to time I have it removed. Condensation mixes with Ethanol and dilutes that fuel.

It takes hundreds of gallons of water and almost a gallon of diesel (farming) to produce a gallon of low energy, highly corrosive, lousy fuel mileage Ethanol. It's good for my station but it's bad for our country and the sooner that all subsidies and mandates go away, the better. Like the solar industry (my canopies are covered with tax payer subsidized solar panels too), without mandates and subsidies, Ethanol is DEAD.

Chip

 

[twobjshelbys]

Except for the fact that some DUMB states have essentially mandated the used of ethanol!

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/faq.htm

The requirement is for an oxygenated fuel. This can be achieved with ethanol. From the site it looks like CA is 10% as is Colorado. It seems likely that the push for 15% will dwindle though and corn will go back to being a food instead of fuel.

 

[B.M.F.]

Gentlemen,

I am the biggest independent retailer of E-85 in Arizona. That isn't saying much as I only sell about 25,000 gallons a month. Arizona law mandates that taxi cabs servicing the Phoenix International Airport use alternative fuels and for most of them that means E-85. The cab drivers hate it and report a 25 to 30% drop in fuel mileage which makes sense as Ethanol only has 65% as much energy per gallon as gasoline. Though it is low on energy content, it doesn't detonate easily so it's octane is very high (about 120 I believe). So to make big power with it you need monster fuel pumps and injectors to flow large volumes of that swill. E-85 is highly corrosive and so I must use all stainless steel pumps, impellers, piping, and nozzles. It also, unlike gasoline, soaks up water like a sponge. Condensation will sit on the bottom of my gasoline tanks (below the fuel pickup going to the pumps) and from time to time I have it removed. Condensation mixes with Ethanol and dilutes that fuel.

It takes hundreds of gallons of water and almost a gallon of diesel (farming) to produce a gallon of low energy, highly corrosive, lousy fuel mileage Ethanol. It's good for my station but it's bad for our country and the sooner that all subsidies and mandates go away, the better. Like the solar industry (my canopies are covered with tax payer subsidized solar panels too), without mandates and subsidies, Ethanol is DEAD.

Chip

Only do to improper tuning. You can get e85 very close to the same cost as gasoline in a vehicle per mile. The Oe's are at fault on not making them run efficant. You can run the Stoich much much leaner than gas and they will not lean pop or jerk. Like I said Vehicles can be made to run better and more effiecent on E85. We have 6.0 chevy pickups that get better milage on e85 than they did with the original Gas tune. The tuning issue is what gives the fuel the bad name, as it is a cleaner fuel than gas. If it got closer to the same milage as gas, more would want to run it. Would become a bigger supply and demand issue. I really am not into politics, I'm just glad i can use the fuel for going fast....

 

[Mullet]

 

[NJGT]

While the $0.45/gal blender tax credit and $0.54/gal import tariff expire Dec 31, ethanol use is by no means going away.

Ethanol use is mandated by the Renewable Fuel Standard legislation passed in 2007 under the last Administration. The RFS for corn-based ethanol rises to 13.2 bln gal in 2012 from 12.6 bln in 2011. There are separate mandates for cellulosic ethanol and other so-called advanced fuels. At roughly 5 billion bushels of corn (1 bu of corn makes 2.75 gal of ethanol) ethanol is now the largest end use for corn accounting for 40% of the demand for the 2011 US corn crop. Gasoline blenders are required to show that they consume corn-based ethanol equal to 10% of their annual volume of gasoline produced.

 

[Mullet]

While the $0.45/gal blender tax credit and $0.54/gal import tariff expire Dec 31, ethanol use is by no means going away.

Ethanol use is mandated by the Renewable Fuel Standard legislation passed in 2007 under the last Administration. The RFS for corn-based ethanol rises to 13.2 bln gal in 2012 from 12.6 bln in 2011. There are separate mandates for cellulosic ethanol and other so-called advanced fuels. At roughly 5 billion bushels of corn (1 bu of corn makes 2.75 gal of ethanol) ethanol is now the largest end use for corn accounting for 40% of the demand for the 2011 US corn crop. Gasoline blenders are required to show that they consume corn-based ethanol equal to 10% of their annual volume of gasoline produced.

Yes I agree with the mandate of having to put it in regular gas it will stay around but what happens to E85? If people gradually stop using it because it costs the same (after the subsidies stop) then what? Do we think adding 10-15% ethanol to the gas we use will keep all the refineries around? I'm sure some will shut down.


Personally I don't see E85 surviving without some help. Now adding it to regular gas will keep going until a certain point where it isn't profitable for the manufacturers.