New member with lots of Q's about a car I bid on EBay, with Salvage title


FENZO

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 7, 2008
1,518
Lafayette, CO
FENZO, A bit of "apples and oranges" here with a comparison to airline structural maintenance. Not quite sure that is a valid comparison.

1) "General public" lives are at risk in an airliner, and they have faith that the government (FAA) and aircraft manufacturers (Boeing, Airbus, Embrier, etc) have tested and approved repair methods to fix primary load carrying structures which if they fail would lead to loss of the aircraft. Often engineers design redundant load paths into primary structures for just such occurances (just like the airlines require two pilots in the front).

2) Structural failures in aircraft have the potential to kill a number of people who have no knowledge of a botched structural failure. If you have your FGT frame fixed and the repair fails leading to a deadly accident, two people may be killed and you knew a frame structural repair was made to your car.

3) Aircraft company engineers perform extensive analysis and testing of recommended primary structure repairs. It is simply too costly and impractical to tell the airline company just throw the aircraft away without fixing it. From a liability perspective it is certainly fine to tell the product owner to just discard the product and purchase a new undamaged one (as is Ford's position on frame repairs). But for high cost items worthy of an investment of technical review and repair testing, generally a fix can be made.


Perhaps a stretch, but having been both an aircraft mechanic and engineer responsible for aircraft modifications (military) I can tell you in general your points concerning repair are theoretically accurate but not necessarily in practice. Each repair is not extensively analyzed, period. In fact, our tongue in cheek assessment about many an aircraft repair was "Cut to form, hammer to fit, paint to match". Don't get me wrong.... I think that is OK.

A well intentioned teenager in China is likely performing significant repairs on the jets we ride, and they don't fall out of the sky. A well intentioned frame repair on a car is apples to apples IMO.

The evaluation of damage repaired valuable vehicles would be more useful if it were akin to aircraft. A salvage car title tells you nothing other than the repair estimate was too costly vs the value of the car and forever hangs a stigma on the vehicle. As you mentioned that is more impractical with aircraft so they end up being repaired but airworthy, and no less valuable. A car could be just as easily repaired but roadworthy, and no less valuable (like the GT40s Ralphie mentioned).

Just a thought exercise, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. It is interesting/confusing that philosophies span the spectrum. :thumbsup

A two second search resulted in a bunch of interesting info, for example:
http://investigativereportingworksh...heaper/story/outsourcing-airline-maintenance/
 

partssmann

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jun 1, 2013
755
Scottsdale, Arizona
PeteK, so let us know at the end of the day tomorrow if you ended up buying the car. It is good that you are prepared to walk if necessary. I spent $1300 on a trip to buy a FGT and walked away with out the car. The seller did not disclose all the cosmetic issues as the car was treated like a Taurus family sedan. I would say if the seller did not disclose all the issues your Mecedes buddy inspection found, then what else has not been disclosed?
 

debtdrives

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 20, 2007
438
Oakland, Michigan 48363
I've had some dealings with ANSA Motorsports. They know what they are doing! So I would rely on their inspection. Keith
 

partssmann

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jun 1, 2013
755
Scottsdale, Arizona
PeteK, still waiting to hear if you ended up buying the FGT. Dont leave us hanging?
 

PeteK

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 18, 2014
2,286
Kalama, Free part of WA State
Gentlemen (I use the term loosely): :wink

As mentioned previously, the GT I looked at is red/white stripe, 4500 miles and was advertised on Ebay a couple weeks ago. It has a salvage title. I bid on it at $147,345, and ended up as the high bidder. I did some research for the VIN on CarFax and the internet. In 2010 it was in an accident in California, it spun, banged and tore the front bumper cover, and hit the back end hard against a wall or something flat. Google the VIN, 1fafp90s05y400540 to see the Autobid site with the pictures of the car as damaged when it was auctioned.

The guy who is selling it bought it at auction in 2010 and had it repaired. In the Ebay ad, he says it was repaired "LIKE NEW" (yes, he used all caps in his ad). So I figured, what the heck, it was cheap enough to bid on and go look at it. I also scheduled an pre-purchase inspection at a shop that does exotics and race cars, and they service several Ford GTs, including at least one that is raced.

I drove the car from the owner's warehouse to the shop (ANSA Motorsports), about 15 minutes, and it seemed to run well and drive straight and brake straight. I noted that the voltmeter was not working, the A/C was blowing only slightly cool, but not cold air, and the window switches seemed to be reversed--that is, the left switch controlled the right window, and vice versa. Of somewhat greater concern was a grinding sound the clutch made when it was engaged in 1st gear to get going. It sounded like metal-on-metal scraping, or a bad rattle. A clutch replacement on that car is probably around $4500. But it might also be a result of the collision and something bent or out of alignment.

The techs carefully checked it out, noting what was repaired instead of replaced, and any residual damage. It turns out that the repairs were done as cheaply as possible, and not very well in many places. From 10 feet away the car looked great, but not when someone who knows what to look for got up close. The rear frame was significantly damaged in the accident. The frame was straightened, but not enough to get all the body gaps lined up correctly, and they welded repairs on the large complex castings that are at the back on each side, that the frame members tie into. The welds looked okay from the top, but when we put the car up on the lift, we could see areas that were welded up that had been broken. In particular, on the right rear lower A-arm, where the front bushing bolts to the frame, one of the frame mounting ears had broken off in the collision. It was welded back on, mostly being composed of built up weld metal, and the bolt holes re-drilled, but probably not precisely. The mechanic said right there that he would recommend that I not buy it because he thought it was unsafe, certainly for racing, but even for street driving.

They had another Ford GT in the shop that had crashed into the wall at Daytona the week before (mashed up the right side), so I could compare one car to the other (very helpful!). In addition to the panel shape and alignment problems, I also noticed that the rear window (over the engine) on the other car was bonded to the engine hood, but on this car it was held on with a rubber bead weatherstrip of some sort; and the rear window on the other car had defroster elements in it, but this car it did not have defrost elements--another sign of a cheap, non-OEM repair.

Other nits: It only had one key and fob, no car cover, no battery tender, no owner's manual or other documentation; and the battery was replaced with a cheap regular battery, not the Optima gel cell battery it originally had. The tires, especially the fronts, were pretty worn, and the wheels were scuffed from curb rubs. The wheels were the optional lightweight forged ones, but when I rotated them by hand, they had some runout, maybe 5-10 100ths. They may have been straightened too. The fact that the front tires were much more worn than the rears, and at only 4500 miles, gave me concerns about why that might be.

Bottom line, this car was not repaired anything near "LIKE NEW" and would require a large investment of time and money to put right, even to just get it safe to drive. I would guess that correctly aligning the frame and re-doing the frame repairs would easily run to $7000, and maybe much more, as you typically find other problems when you pull everything apart. Then add the clutch, air conditioning, rear window and other minor stuff, and you're headed towards $20,000 or more. And that doesn't even correct the rear engine hood that looked good at a distance, but up close, it wasn't straightened out correctly either, so the panel joints and window didn't align evenly.

In the next message I'll tell you what I did today.
 

bonehead

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 18, 2012
2,814
Houston, TX
Yikes. Sounds like a dud for sure. Good on you for doing your due diligence. The right one will come eventually. Good luck on the search!
 

PeteK

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 18, 2014
2,286
Kalama, Free part of WA State
After getting back from Miami late last night, today I went to look at another FGT in Maryland. I got a lead on this car from Dock at Capital Auto Group. It was for sale at Ramsey Ford.

This is a 2005 with red/white stripes and all 4 options. It is number 401677. It is in original condition without any aftermarket performance mods and has all the original documentation. It has 26,400 miles, most of which was put on since May 2011, so it got driven regularly. It belonged to the previous owner of the dealership, and it appears to have been well-maintained. Since it was driven regularly (I understand frequently to/from Ocean City, MD) it has some small rock chips in the paint in the front panel and scratches, but not anything you notice unless you looked for them. I spent more than an hour closely inspecting the car, and then took it for a test drive. Everything worked, it ran smoothly, and had great power.

Long story short, I decided to buy it. So, I'll see some of you at Katie's Cars and Coffee on clear Saturday mornings at the Old Brogue in Great Falls, VA. Maybe I'll even get to Leonardtown MD for the GT Guys next weekend.

Let me also give a shout out to Derek Haga, who is the general manager, who patiently helped me with the many questions I had, and provided details about the car history at that dealership. It was owned by the owner of the dealership for the past 8 years.

One question for the FGT Forum brain trust: I asked Derek to run the OASIS report to see what recalls had been done. The report did not show any recalls. Did the recall for the CV flange bolts cutoff at some point in production, or did it apply to all FGTs?

Thanks in advance.
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Yikes. Sounds like a dud for sure. Good on you for doing your due diligence. The right one will come eventually. Good luck on the search!

:agree:
 

fjpikul

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jan 4, 2006
11,498
Belleville, IL
It covered all GT's, but had a time limit. If I remember correctly, it had to be accomplished by sometime in 2009 or it was then on your dime. The owner might have had the ARP bolts put in somewhere else. If you go to Petunia's, ask the GT Guys if they have any record of working on the car.
 

debtdrives

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 20, 2007
438
Oakland, Michigan 48363
Yes, Ford had a 1 year time limit on it, so it won't show as an open recall on Oasis. However, it will show in the repair history on oasis, if it was done.
 

roketman

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Oct 24, 2005
8,006
ma.
Good move on the 26k GT .Mine has 33k on it and drives as well as it did with 1k.In fact better I now have Scotts shocks and spring set up!
 

partssmann

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jun 1, 2013
755
Scottsdale, Arizona
We are all relieved that you did not buy the salvage FGT. Did not have a good feeling about that car. Congrats on your new FGT and you will never regret buying the clean history car. Please post a picture of your new FGT with that huge smile on your face to make it real to the rest of us.
 
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twobjshelbys

GT Owner
Jul 26, 2010
6,060
Las Vegas, NV
Wow, it was even listed on the dealer web site! How often does that happen these days?
 

jvmax

GT owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 13, 2008
65
darn, you beat me to it!! Red was my least favorite color, but for a clean 1 owner car under $200k you got a great deal.
 

PeteK

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 18, 2014
2,286
Kalama, Free part of WA State
Gents: What is a "PM" and how do I use it? I assume that means "private message" through the forum, but I didn't find it under the usual drop-down menus.

Thanks in advance.
 

Xcentric

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 9, 2012
5,213
Myakka City, Florida
Pete, Yes, PM is private message and it is for GT owners. As soon as DBK sees this, you will have owner privileges on the forum. Congrats!
 

dbk

The Favor Factory™
Staff member
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jul 30, 2005
15,187
Metro Detroit
Done.
 

jaxgt

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jul 12, 2006
2,795
Congrats on the purchase. I would not be at all afraid of high mileage. You chose wisely. Might I suggest having the GT Guys go through it to make sure all needed service is done and everything is performing properly. Will help ensure another 26k trouble free miles.

Photos of your new ride are a must too
 
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Tomcat

GT Owner
I have 35k on mine so I get a LOT of Smiles per gallon!
 

PeteK

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 18, 2014
2,286
Kalama, Free part of WA State
DBK, thanks, now I can see the PM drop down menu.