Track upgrades


Kave

GT Owner
Nov 13, 2006
275
Like someone stated. The cool down lap is the most important lap. Go as fast as you can without braking hard. Get the air in their to cool the brakes, very important. I am sure you know but sometimes people forget and pull the parking brakes, and that warps the rotors instantly.:cheers
 

mousecatcher

GT Owner
Jun 26, 2007
200
San Mateo, CA
Cryo treating sounds like an interesting idea for the rotors, thanks.

over at corvette road racing forum, this is generally thought of to be a waste of time.
 

Specracer

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Nov 28, 2005
7,088
MA
$500 an "axle" is for QEM factory one piece rotors. Not the racing 2 piece.

$500 a set is much better. I'll check Brembo. Maybe I can just get the rotors as Im sure the hats are ok.
-Thanks!
 

Yukonranger

GT Owner
Jun 9, 2008
118
Sagle, ID
I was talking two days ago to Alex at T&A Shocks about Penske shocks for my car. Alex was a Ford development engineer on the GT. He told me that engine cooling would be the weak link when running the GT on slower (a lot of 2nd gear) tracks. There are several solutions. The first which will absolutely work it to remove the air conditioning. The next, more realistic one, is to seal up the area around the radiator. There is room for quite a bit of leakage on the sides. Light airplane engines are air cooled and closing off an area the size of a quarter often reduces cylinder head temp by 25F.

Mike

My car is mostly used on the street but I do an occasional track day with it, and when I do so I tend to run it pretty hard. In doing so I have found it has both insufficient engine and brake cooling to cope with hard running on track. I am consequently looking to make some additional improvements to make it more track worthy and welcome advice from those that have conquered the same problems.


Here is what I have currently.
Engine:

Whipple Gen I
Ida exhaust & tune
709 rwhp w 19psi boost.

Brakes:
Ford Motorsport 2 piece lightweight floating rotors
Castrol SRF Fluid
Hawk pads

Tires:
Pirelli P-Zero Corsa System Assimetrico
F 235/40-18
R 345/35-19

Other:
Transaxle cooler
Short shift kit

Problems:
1) Engine cooling.

I have only done two track days since installing the Whipple but on both days the coolant would boil over after one hot 20 minute session. I did two or three track days "Pre-Whipple" and never had a boil over. I understand that more HP=more heat, but need to find a way to keep engine temps down with the whipple. On both occasions it boiled over the car came off track ok, with temps around 230. I would then shut it down and leave it sitting with the tail section open to help it cool, it would then boil over a few minutes after shut down. After the most recent boilover I let it cool down and added water and water wetter and went out again. I found I could run hard for about 5 laps then temps got to 230. I then ran a couple slow laps until it got down to 200. It would then hit 230 again in about 2-3 laps. This prevented the boil over but wasn't as much fun, especially when I had to slow while reeling in my next victim. Ambient temp was about 88 degrees.

2) Brake cooling.
I have warped my second set of rotors, the last being the Ford Motorsport two piece floating rotors. I really no longer have a problem of brake fade since I use Castrol SRF and Hawk pads, now the rotors are just toast after a hard day. They are ok for moderate street use but now vibrate under hard braking and do not feel as effective as they used to.

Current ideas:
I was just at the Kohler International Challenge vintage races at Road America in July. This year it was co-sponsored by Ford and they had a Ford GT there from their engineering department to take VIP's on some hot laps during lunch and between sessions. I had the opportunity to take a good look at the car later and noted the following which I think are good ideas. 1) The fake front brake ducts had been converted to fully functional ducts directly to the rotors with tubing. 2) It had about a 3/8" wicker on the trailing edge of the bodywork where the air exits the radiator out and over the hood. I think this creates a bit of low pressure behind the radiator that probably helps pull more airflow through at speed. It probably doesnt disturb the aerodynamics much. 3) It had nicely mounted shoulder harnesses going through the holes in the seats.

Another idea I have is to make it a point to always do a cool off lap, this will likely help reduce temps a little before stopping.

I welcome any advice from others in the area of brake and engine cooling.
 

Gulf GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 9, 2006
1,539
California
The next, more realistic one, is to seal up the area around the radiator. There is room for quite a bit of leakage on the sides. Light airplane engines are air cooled and closing off an area the size of a quarter often reduces cylinder head temp by 25F.

Mike

Interesting idea.
 

cobrar1339

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Feb 2, 2006
956
Diamond Bar, Ca
over at corvette road racing forum, this is generally thought of to be a waste of time.

Yup, 100% that is what they say. That is because we can buy NAPA rotors for $25 each front and rear. It's more cost effective to use them than to cryo. When the rotors are more expensive, the game changes.

I have been down both roads. But I do not like the extra labor of swapping the rotors all the time. I generally get 5-6 weekends from the cryo ones. But they are about $120.00 each for a Vette. They start with a better rotor as well. I thought the first set was going to go forever vs. the OEM/NAPA ones. But I finally cracked a rear rotor. I always carry spares and put the NAPA's on. They were toast in 1.5 days.

There are schools of thought on Cryo. Some like it for trans parts, axles, rods and other gear. The extra hardness makes them stonger in some stress applications.

The rotor itself will become harder, meaning the brake pad may not grip as quickly. We did this test with Performace Friction for Cop car replacement rotors and pads. On the dyno, that was true, but the gap was real small. If you were to use a more aggressive pad it's comes back and under in bite. So, since you are using a more aggressive Hawk pad you should be fine.

Just a couple thoughts on the vibration.

1. Bedding the pads is a big deal with race pads as they are not cured like OEM or typical street pads.

2. Were the same rotors run with two different pad materials?.

3. If 1 or 2. ICE may have the fix as the material left on/in the rotor is causing the vibration. It is more of a skipping/sliding action vs. a run out issue. The two materials do not like each other very much. You could have someone check run out on the car. If not run out, it is the material issue.

4. To solve 3. a very light scuff on a well calibrated lathe should clean them up and you can check run out on the lathe. Warning, 98% of all shops never calibrate and lathe and have no clue how to do it. This is an art from and they will spend about $400 to have it done. One of my guys teaches this.

5. At 170 mph run out is a huge issue. GM specs are just .03 on about everything they build. Guys with air guns on lug nuts are not your friends. Torque by hand in the star pattern. Clean up any rust or corrosion on the Hubs with a roloc disc and the back of the rotor.

Note on Trust: I have a reputable corvette shop flush my system once in awhile for track prep as I get in a jamb for time. It requires a GM tech2 scan tool I do not have. As he put the stuff back on, he slammed the lugs with an air gun and not torque stick. He knows better, and was just lazy. I just happened to walk in while he was doing it. He then see's me, and grabs the torque wrench to verify like nothing happened or he had the gun on low. They click easy, I grab the wrench and they click easy at 135 ft lbs as well. :frown


If you want to send me the bad set of Ford Racing Rotors or stock rotors I can check them and tell you the real story. I can turn this around in about 2 weeks, depending on my travel schedule. PM me if interested or give me a phone # and I can call. And yes, if they can be cleaned up and trued up you can run them again. I am curious to see what is causing the problem. In either case keep us posted as to what you find.
 

cobrar1339

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Feb 2, 2006
956
Diamond Bar, Ca
Mist systems. The EVO has this for the Intercoolers OEM, and it does work for a short blast. I have run a similar system for another turbo car.

Those cars develop a milky white film on the IC over time. But, since the air goes in the engine bay it has no chance of hitting the windsheild. Our air exits pointed at the winshield and rolls along the side of the car.

The EVO however, is cooling a fixture that hot air is going through. It may not be as effective with a radiator. Hayden is a reputable mfg. IMO, I do not see them selling gimmicks that do not have strong evidence of working. That has not been there game. I bought from them for 20 years. I have not bought in the last 10, so things may have changed. May not work for our application. Worth more investigation I think. But it would not have to be tested on a GT to find out IMO.

We have a track day in Pahrump NV, soon. I may just order it for the AS Mustang and do some testing.
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
$500 an "axle" is for QEM factory one piece rotors. Not the racing 2 piece.

My mistake.... the Brembo I was talking about are 1 piece rotors. Not comparable to the 2 piece Ford racing part.
 

John B

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jan 28, 2006
158
Thanks Cobrar, I may take you up on the rotor inspection. First I need to decide what I want to replace them with. I'm debating whether to just replace the Ford Motorsport two piece rotors ($4k) and try to make the front air ducts functional or go for the Stillen 6 piston set up ($8k). The rotors are 1/4" larger in front, and 2" larger in the rear. Stillen says it gives it about 2% more rear bias which feels fine on the track. Either way, I think I need to make the air ducts functional.

Regarding engine temps, not sure what to do. I don't want to remove the A/C. YukonRangers idea of making sure the radiator has a good seal cant hurt but I suspect it wont be the final answer. I'll give it a good look while I'm tinkering around in there trying to make the air ducts functional.
 

Gulf GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 9, 2006
1,539
California
Seems I remember Kip Ewing telling me that during development they added Gurney style flaps to the front radiator area, and that the engineers thought it did make a difference on cooling the track temps. Idea was scrapped in final design, but Kip has mentioned bringing them back in carbon fiber. Maybe a kit with both the flaps and additional sections in carbon fiber that would better push air to the radiators and seal the maximum amount of airflow through them.
 

Ed Sims

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 7, 2006
7,853
NorCal
rotors fine

My stock rotors are fine on the track & the Ford 2 piece rotors are also. No
warping after 1000+ aggressive track miles. I do use softer pads - the stock pads! They are easier on the rotors & for a 30 min session work great. Sometimes I get a little fade on the last few laps but the fluid's getting hot by then also. Stock pads are quiet & require no heating/warm up for good stopping. When I used race, or hard compound, pads on my old race T-Bird the rotors died (cracked, warped) fast. It is the best stopping combo though.

Stock pads, stock rotors (or Ford 2 piece rotors) & fresh fluid on the GT is a great track match!

If you're racin' or doing over 30 minute hard sessions go to Stillen for a different setup.

Ed