Horsepower - before RWHP


AZGT

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Dec 20, 2005
1,354
Scottsdale, AZ.
Just wondering. Searched, but too many mentions of horsepower.

If the car is ballpark 550 rear wheel horsepower, does any know the approximate "actual" (is that the SAE measurement?).
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
AZGT said:
Just wondering. Searched, but too many mentions of horsepower.

If the car is ballpark 550 rear wheel horsepower, does any know the approximate "actual" (is that the SAE measurement?).

Most agree between 515 and 530 rwhp, every dyno reads differently
 

Gierkink

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Oct 5, 2005
672
Wellington, FL
AZGT said:
Just wondering. Searched, but too many mentions of horsepower.

If the car is ballpark 550 rear wheel horsepower, does any know the approximate "actual" (is that the SAE measurement?).

Mine dyno'd at 598 HP (not RWHP) stock which compares to the 550 HP advertised by Ford for the car. I have a friend whos car also dyno'd at 598 HP stock. It's my understanding that Ford's advertised 550 HP number is very conservative and that almost all of the cars are above that with some variance due to the hand-built engines.


Rob
 

jamie

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Sep 23, 2005
271
Virginia
How do you come up with a hp number thats not rear wheel? Did you pull the motor?
 

50 BMG

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2005
559
AZ
They're suppost to be ~575 on a engine dyno, ~530 at the wheels.
 

ViperJoe

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 17, 2006
1,305
Washington Crossing, PA
Dec. 2005 Motor Trend "..... the GT's supercharged V-8 was pumping out at least 600 ponies". I assume they meant bhp and not rwhp.
 

kosupply

GT Owner/Board of Directors
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 27, 2006
236
Houston
bony said:
Most agree between 515 and 530 rwhp, every dyno reads differently

mine was a little low because it needed to be tuned after the IDA exhaust install...probably lost a little HP....see attached. shows before and after the pulley and tune
 

Attachments

  • hennessey.pdf
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Bart Carter

GT Owner
Mar 12, 2006
272
Las Vegas
AZGT said:
Just wondering. Searched, but too many mentions of horsepower.

If the car is ballpark 550 rear wheel horsepower, does any know the approximate "actual" (is that the SAE measurement?).
I don't know why no one has posted this yet, but here are the facts:

RWHP is less than FWHP because of the losses through the drivetrain. The normal loss quoted for a DynoJet is 15 to 18 percent for a manual transmission. Other dynos have different percent losses and you may need to take that into account.

You can calculate the FWHP from measured RWHP by using these percentage figures. For example, using 15 percent, a RWHP of 550 would calculate to 647 FWHP and 550 FWHP should show 467 RWHP on the dyno.

Obviously, Ford greatly underrated the GT.
 

Tungsten

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Feb 22, 2006
275
Atlanta
Dyno Question

When they ran my dyno pull the line became somewhat ragged as it approached red line. Similar to what KO shows on his. They told me I probably needed to replace the plugs and that it would smooth out.

My question, should the line be straight or are they all ragged as they approach redline?

Thanks!!!
Don
 
H

HHGT

Guest
kosupply said:
mine was a little low because it needed to be tuned after the IDA exhaust install...probably lost a little HP....see attached. shows before and after the pulley and tune

I have the Accufab and Tune and did a dyno run on a humid day. I got almost the same numbers as the henessey chart. 513/488.

This may be a crazy question but is it possible that all these X-Pipes, IDAs etc. reallly do not provide any increase in performance? The sound is awesome without a doubt, but I regret not getting a baseline dyno before..

Also, the subsequent post noted that 550 RWHP I thought that was the Flywheel HP?
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
HHGT said:
I have the Accufab and Tune and did a dyno run on a humid day. I got almost the same numbers as the henessey chart. 513/488.

This may be a crazy question but is it possible that all these X-Pipes, IDAs etc. reallly do not provide any increase in performance? The sound is awesome without a doubt, but I regret not getting a baseline dyno before..

Also, the subsequent post noted that 550 RWHP I thought that was the Flywheel HP?

A very good question because all too ofter verbose claims are made about such a modification and yet one that is likely better not answered. I say this because generally speaking cat back exhaust pieces do not do much to increase HP numbers. I suspect that in the case of the OEM muffler it is a very free flowing unit as such I do not think that there was a restriction there even at the higher RPM levels. You likely have more mechanical restiction as the exhaust gas passes through the cats than the OEM muffler ever caused.

The sound, the reduction in captured heat, and for some the looks are what it is all about. Add to this that installing the AccuFab reduced weight so by default less HP is required to perform the same task; is it able to be measured; probably not.

I feel certain that the OEM muffler allows the gals to bark just about as loud as the regulatory boys would allow however if given the green light I suspect that Ford would have had her sounding a bit closer to that with the AccuFab installed.

Some say that if it sounds fast then it must be

Takes care

Shadowman
 

kosupply

GT Owner/Board of Directors
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 27, 2006
236
Houston
I attached an email from Hennessey that is self explanatory. While making the car breathe better with the different exhausts, the car needs to be tuned to compensate. Mine felt flat at high RPM after the IDA install. He told me that it should have been tuned after the install. The other cars he had done had the cat delete headers and Ford racing muffler. Mine made more HP than that setup. He also said the H pipes flow better than the X pipes. The attached dyno sheet is hard to read, but if you zoom it and look at the bottom you will see where the air/fuel ratio fell off the chart at 5700rpm . This was the first pull before pulley mods right after I dropped it off while it was hot.






HI KEVIN,

ATTACHED IS YOUR DYNO PULL WITH THE IDA PIPES. THE MOTOR IS STILL PRETTY HEAT SOAKED - SO THE POWER NUMBERS ARE NOT ALL THAT GREAT AT 510 REAR WHEEL HP.

ALSO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE GRAPH YOU WILL SEE THAT YOUR AIR FUEL RATIO NUMBERS GO BELOW 10 AT 5700 RPM. FORDS CAN BE VERY SENSATIVE TO CHANGES IN AIR FLOW AND IF YOU DONT HAVE THE COMPUTER TUNED FOR THE CHANGES YOU CAN END UP LOSING SOME POWER.

OUR PULLEY CHANGE AND TUNE WILL FIX THIS AND SHOULD GET YOU UP OVER 600 REAR WHEEL HP TOMORROW.

I WILL LET YOU KNOW WHEN WE ARE DONE WITH THE UPGRADES. LET ME KNOW IF YOU WANT ME TO SEND SOMEBODY DOWN TO PICK YOU UP AND BRING YOU TO THE SHOP TO GET THE GT.

TALK TO YOU TOMORROW.
 

Attachments

  • henesseyscan0014 (4).pdf
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Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Interesting

I would have interest in seeing an OEM baseline A/F as I suspect that the team at Ford ran the gals a bit fat as a means to create a significant margin for error. On this end with FI (forced induction) cars particularly supercharged I target a number at WOT at 11.7-12.0 and even then I know there is a bit left on the table however there is an old saying…. Torque likes fuel and then HP is simple an extrapolated number based on the actions involved. There for often times one will continue to feed the motor until the torque begins to fall off and then slowly trim the fuel back a bit so as to garner the greatest HP number.

I do not know enough about the operation of the FORD PCM/ECU it’s ability (if any) to self adapt over time based on real time driving style and yet I think this is a design feature therefore if one were to be cruising through town stop and go day after day and then go do a couple extreme gear blast such as a Dyno pull the PCM/ECU would not recognize this as a normal action therefore will not have adapted to such a request. In any case I respectfully temper some of my comments because some of what I have shared is based on what I have experienced and not what I know specifically of the FORD PCM/ECU.

As for X pipe or H pipe and which is better; it will depend on who you chat with however it would seem to me that an X pipe would not only allow but help to encourage a better flow, savaging, and draw within the pipe. The H pipe design was brought into play many years back for cylinder balance, noise, and was shown to provide a bit more low end torque but then most of the cars with them installed had a pipe running down one side and one on the other so the practical ability to create an X pipe was not there.

Still I defer back to an earlier comment I do not know based on empirical data I can only share my opinions

Takes care

Shadowman
 

Dynotech402

Member
Sep 30, 2006
5
They are all different

I've run about a dozen GT's on an extremely repeatable Superflow Chassis dyno. So far, no two have read the same. We've run the same car weeks apart just to verify the data, and we've found that because these are hand built motors, no two will have the same hp at the wheel. The general rule when converting from whp to flywheel(at the motor)hp is a loss of 18-23% depending on drivetrain. I've NEVER seen one in stock trim make more than 530 rwhp, and I've seen more than one make closer to 500. Anyone who claims more than 550rwhp in stock trim is in dreamland. Even a Dynojet(which reads about 10-15% higher than the Superflow), shouldn't show that high.
 

lthlvpr

GT Owner
Mar 8, 2006
299
Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but some Ford engineers shared some interesting facts with me at the Rally. Fist, of all, every car's drivetrain loss is different and, on average, most people use 15% loss for a rwd car with a manual transmission and closer to 20% loss for an awd car on a dynojet dyno, and dyno types generally yield lower numbers/high correction factors. Why? Because they back track to the manufacturer's claim and assume the car was making the advertised power. This is how Mazda got in trouble a few times. People were dynoing their cars on a chasis dyno and found that the loss was 20%+ for a rwd car. Mazda came back and gave people the option to return their cars. How does this relate to the GT? Well, with the efficient tranny, diveshaft, and flywheel, more than a few Ford people told me the loss was under 10% for the GT. So, someone making 515rwhp on the dyno probably is making closer to 570hp. Still over the advertised number, just doesn't sound as good as 600hp. Personally, I am not interested in what power the car makes on the dyno as much as how much it changes with upgrades (always using the same dyno). That is why back-to-back pulls (before/after) are so important for tuners. The tough part is trying to get the same conditions, temp, etc...for each pull. Since this is nearly impossible, the best way to do it is make at least 5 runs before and 5 runs after. Then average each to get a better comparison. Otherwise, you can take the worst of the before run and the best of the after run and make the differences seem larger than they actually are.
 
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STUNTS

FORD GT OWNER & LITTLE TIMMYS DAD!
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 5, 2006
2,438
SoCal
Bart Carter said:
I don't know why no one has posted this yet, but here are the facts:

RWHP is less than FWHP because of the losses through the drivetrain. The normal loss quoted for a DynoJet is 15 to 18 percent for a manual transmission. Other dynos have different percent losses and you may need to take that into account.

You can calculate the FWHP from measured RWHP by using these percentage figures. For example, using 15 percent, a RWHP of 550 would calculate to 647 FWHP and 550 FWHP should show 467 RWHP on the dyno.

Obviously, Ford greatly underrated the GT.
I completely concurrrr with you. However, I have been told it can be more to the specs of 11-13% drop or increase. No big deal right? I guess it would depend on a number of different things. Nonetheless... my .02..

A bigger question for me is.... is the advertised HP from ford advertised as fwhp or rwhp. If it is FW @550 with an 11% drop... that would = 489.5rwhp.
If it is advertised rwhp@ 550 then an 11% increase would =610.5 fwhp
 
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richardhead

GT Owner
Sep 19, 2006
169
Exhaust Modifications and Horsepower

Although a new GT owner, my associates and I have done a substantial amount of Corvette work in the exhaust area. Rule #1 for the serious upgrader is to always do a dyno baseline on your stock car when contemplating exhaust changes. Rule #2 is an experienced tuner who has installed a number of a given exhaust modification, and experimented with tuning parameter changes across the realistic operational ranges for the octane rating of the gasoline being used, can generally provide a pretty good idea of the realistic %-tage HP increase from a given baseline. Rule #3 is you generally always need a re-tune when replacing cats (or adding headers with cat replacement) ,or you can face the prospect of horsepower reductions typically due to possible lean operating conditions from more efficient flow/scavenging (the factory generally calibrates for a richer A/F mixture to avoid any chance of preignition/detonation with the stock operating calibrations). Rule #5 is there is generally some HP left to gain from the factory tune to custom tune regardless of any cat-back replacement (ie., a retune with no changes to the stock exhaust). In general, we have seen minimal HP increases with the replacement of the stock system back of the converters, except mufflers/resonators which choke down the diameter of the exhaust pipe when entering the muffler or resonator. Loudness and resonation are typical results of unresearched cat-back replacements. Some catback pipes, like Accufab for the GT, use a shared cross chamber to reduce resonance. I'm not familiar with the IDA, yet. I'm guessing the stock GT, with a good tune from an experienced dyno-based tuner, could deliver additional horsepower in the 20-35 HP range. Cat backs would yield a deeper louder sound,and maybe some resonance (which has been reported elsewhere on this forum), but minimal horsepower increase (although some would be present). Given the cost of catback systems, an $2000 investment in a vented variable pulley supercharger kit is a far more effective HP producer...albeit a little more complicated install. A full header system without cats and using either the stock or performance FRP muffler would also yield a HP increase in the 10%+ range (with a big increase in loudness, perhaps objectionable to most). Certainly, with the GT, the stock system weighs more than catback replacement systems (muffler about 43-45 lbs. versus, for example, an Accufab at around 15 lbs with hardware; stock exhaust manifolds and cats weigh considerably more than FRP long tube headers). In this game, its always been an issue of substance versus image with a lot of products. It ends up being a personal choice, but the choice should be made based upon fact not hype. Forum members starting with baselines and using subsequent dyno measurements of product add-ons and retunes should post results to the forum, so we all can get a more consistent range of outcome estimates for any exhaust changes.
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
Good replies by all. Thanks for the information.

I have heard that the GT transmission is extremely efficient, but I have never seen hard data on its power loss. If anyone knows where to find it please post a link.
 

Red Rocket

GT Owner
Aug 31, 2006
410
Pacific North West
richardhead said:
".. Given the cost of catback systems, an $2000 investment in a vented variable pulley supercharger kit is a far more effective HP producer...albeit a little more complicated install.

Richard, why do you say ' a vented' supercharger? the reason I ask is that some res[ectable tuners (like Sean Hyland) have said the s/c needs to be vented if the pulley is changed, and others have said it does not. So as a person pondering changing the pulley perhaps you (and other techs like Mike from Toronto) could weigh in on the reasons for or against using the stock s/c without a vent.
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Red Rocket said:
Richard, why do you say ' a vented' supercharger? the reason I ask is that some res[ectable tuners (like Sean Hyland) have said the s/c needs to be vented if the pulley is changed, and others have said it does not. So as a person pondering changing the pulley perhaps you (and other techs like Mike from Toronto) could weigh in on the reasons for or against using the stock s/c without a vent.

The issue of vented or not has been a subject of much debate between SC companies for years; there are several that maintain that sealed is the only way to go, several that install small pressure relief valves, and then another group that simply free air them. The only time that I install a vent in the supercharger gear case is “when” I am having a problem with the snout seal leaking and this is typically caused by poorly installing the seal, minor shaft wear, or ……….. one of the internal shaft seals leaking hence pushing pressure into the gear case that is supposed to go into the motor.

One such reason for the sealed unit is it forces the seal to work (one group’s opinion) better because it is forced against the spinning shaft and yet another group will tell you that the seal has a spring or lip designed to maintain this pressure; confused yet...... I have dealt with this for years and through it all have had great success with both styles.

I would venture to say that the increased shaft spin rate resulting from a smaller pulley will have no affect on the pressure within the gear case of the supercharger….. there you go another opinion.

All the best

Shadowman