Crank damper from Innovators West


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Dan Schoneck

Permanent Vacation
Oct 31, 2007
41
Where's your proof that the GT balancer isn't suitable? We've got cars with over 60,000 miles with ZERO crank issues. One of my best friends has 40,000 miles and 600+rwhp with ZERO issues. We have cars with 20,000+ miles at over 1000hp with ZERO crank issues.

You have to realize that FRPP parts are subject to EXTREME reliability concerns no normal tuner would ever adhere to. They'll warranty the FRPP pulley/tune kit without changing the balancer, so obviously it's not a concern. Ford would be a WHOLE lot more concerned about eating the warranty cost of a Ford GT motor than a GT500 motor.

That pulley tune kit for the gt500 adds how much power?
Also u can only turn a gt500 to 6200rpm. If you remove the limiter on them they will have a internal or external oiling problem(ie No need for truck to oil down gravel road for Dust)

It not that gt balancer is not suitable.(200 hrs tested at W.O.T is very impresive) But ford won't warranty the motor on a 07 gt500 which has the same balancer, if you put the bigger ford racing blower on it and that kit makes 600rwhp. I guess i see why they wouldn't as u xplained. I know that the gt500 balancers have been coming apart. I also know of the gt balancers coming apart on a machine(test bench).Like i said though 98% of the people on here would never experience that because they don't turn there motors past readline. But as i know the tests have proven them to come apart after 7500 rpm.
But Joe Cermin's car brought up a example of the balancer possible being a problem. The crank did break, they said possible because of a bad batch, but if one of these cars did Detonate with that 22lb dinosoar on there there is a chance that it could lead to crank failure as the mod motor'd cars don't have that much of a snout anyways and at the point of detonation the balancer would be seeing some bad harmonics.

The GT balancer is not a issue on anything stock or modded to a certain point. I don't think i have seen a failure on a car,or anywhere else. But it deffenantly should be looked at if you are going to make god like power with them, because it could save the motor.

It would be a good idea for anything that make over a 1000rwhp to have one.
I believe Ati balancers is also coming out with one. I don't know if it is going to be steel or alum.
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
If the GT 500 balancer is the same size as our GTs, then when I am replacing the belts, it is something I would consider changing if it wasn't too difficult and the required tools and new crankshaft bolt didn't add to much to the cost. Saving 10lbs off the cranks, better durability at only $295 seem like a good tradeoff. The Innovators dampener is a very nice piece, but I don't rev my engine past 6800 and have my limiter is set to 7000. I don't need the added rev capacity.My dyno chart shows that there isn't much more power beyond the 6800 rpm anyway and the Innovator's maintenance requirements concern me too.
 

dbk

The Favor Factory™
Staff member
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jul 30, 2005
15,187
Metro Detroit
You're running a Whipple right? If you are, I would take the proposition a bit more seriously. At least that's what I gather talking to Jamal. I don't think anyone will ever notice with a stock or pullied car, but once you move to a Whipple or higher power level, it's probably a decent idea, especially if the OEM piece from 08 would fit for 295.
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
You're running a Whipple right? If you are, I would take the proposition a bit more seriously. At least that's what I gather talking to Jamal. I don't think anyone will ever notice with a stock or pullied car, but once you move to a Whipple or higher power level, it's probably a decent idea, especially if the OEM piece from 08 would fit for 295.

Yes, Dave I am running a Whipple, but at less boost than Bony. If you ever find out if the new GT 500 part fits let us all know. Since it is a PITA to change the belts, I don't look forward to the process.
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,102
St Augustine, Florida
Holy crankshaft hysteria, this is crazy !

What are the facts here ?

Crank failure total that we are all aware of 1

We then get one person that states the following :

‘The oem ford one is not a good Piece.’

Further down the line the same person states :

‘The GT balancer is not a issue on anything stock or modded to a certain point. I don't think i have seen a failure on a car,or anywhere else.’

Does anyone see a pattern here or is just me ?
 

MAD IN NC

Proud Owner/ BOD blah bla
Mark IV Lifetime
Feb 14, 2006
4,211
North Carolina
Holy crankshaft hysteria, this is crazy !

What are the facts here ?

Crank failure total that we are all aware of 1

We then get one person that states the following :

‘The oem ford one is not a good Piece.’

Further down the line the same person states :

‘The GT balancer is not a issue on anything stock or modded to a certain point. I don't think i have seen a failure on a car,or anywhere else.’

Does anyone see a pattern here or is just me ?



Agreed I'm dizzy! :willy WTF? :willy :eek :rofl
 

Indy GT

Yea, I got one...too
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 14, 2006
2,526
Greenwood, IN
Crankshaft Harmonics 101

Guys, this is an interesting post. Unfortunately quite a bit of mis-information is posted herein. I have done some research on this topic so let me try to clarify some of the points brought up to help un-confuse:

1) The crankshaft assembly we have in our GT’s is just fine for its intended design condition. 550 hp was the engine power design point at 6500 rpm redline and as Dave correctly points out many owners have moded-up to 800-900 hp and have had no reported crankshaft issues. Will you have torsional issues if you push the engine (by whatever mod you care to apply) to 1300 hp (235% of design power) and turn the engine 7500 rpm (+15% overspeed) my guess would be yes! But the engine was not DESIGNED to run at that power reliably. So if one owner chooses to run to those outlying conditions and has a problem, why is the “sky falling” for the 99.999% of us other owners? Clearly it is not.
2) The crankshaft harmonic damper selected by the Ford design engineers for the GT engine is a “viscous” damped balancer. This is a sophisticated (and expensive) damper which uses a precisely tuned weight which moves within the damper annulus to attenuate crankshaft harmonics. The annulus is filled with a (relatively temperature insensitive) viscous silicon fluid. During engine development the team spent many hours of dyno testing to determine the various “harmonics” (dynamic resonances at power of the rotating crankshaft assembly with the rods, bearings, pistons, rings and flywheel) of our GT engine crankshaft. Typically the 4th order harmonic of the engine firing order, is the most dominant mode and the OEM damper effectively dissipates this mode. I would think it reasonable that the telemetry and measuring equipment necessary to map these harmonic modes up to the 12th harmonic would be beyond most if not all aftermarket balancer companies resourses. Thus I would conclude the Ford engine team knows more about our engine dynamics than most others and if a 20 pound damper was specified, then that is what the engine needs.
3) Engine torsional and bending harmonics are difficult to understand even for most engineers. Comments such as reduced rotating mass is always a gain and thus leads to less stress on the crank are not always true. Crankshaft harmonics are not “intuitive” and often counter to what you might think is the correct answer. Thus a 10 pound damper is not ALWAYS better than a 20 pound damper just because it is 10 pounds lighter. It depends on what mass is necessary to attenuate the quantified responses. Will the engine acceleration characteristics be faster with a 10# damper vs. a 20# damper? Possibly. But in my opinion given the torque output of our blown engine and the mass of the rotating components the engine must accelerate to move the car (i.e. clutch, transaxle gears, differential, rear axles, wheels and tires) the 10# delta in damper weight could likely not be felt by the driver.
4) The viscous damper also has the attribute of providing damping over a broad range of engine rpm. The other type damper is termed “elastomeric” as it uses a compliant rubber layer between the damper hub and harmonic tuning mass. This type of damper is less expensive, narrower in its attenuation properties and not as effective as the vicious style at high rpm. Ford has opted to use a “dual-mode elastomeric” harmonic balancer for the 2008 GT500 MOD5.4 engine. Note this IS a different damper than the viscous damper used on all GT engines and is tuned to slightly different discrete frequencies. The GT500 crankshaft is slightly different than that used in the GT and thus the harmonic balancer is tuned as best the dual-mode elastomeric damper can do, for that specific engine. I would see little advantage of swapping the GT500 damper for the viscous GT damper to save the reported weight difference only to have a less effective damping system.
5) One must also consider the environment in which the component is expected to operate. Our mid-engine GT sees little if any airflow around the engine. Certainly the airflow cooling characteristics of a MOD5.4 engine in a front mounted GT500 are dissimilar to that of our GT engine. All harmonic dampers absorb and dissipate torsional vibrations. They attenuate the detrimental harmonics by converting the unwanted oscillations into heat energy. The elastomeric damper is more temperature sensitive and needs cooling air to dissipate this generated heat. Thus an application in a front engine car with cooling air bathing the engine is fine for this type of system, but not so good for a GT application which has little airflow to dissipate the converted heat energy. The viscious damper as OEM supplied is the better application here.
6) At the engine rpm ranges ALL of us owners will ever use there is NO risk of the OEM harmonic damper bursting. Certification testing of the GT balancer was made to 10,000 rpm and held for 2 minutes. The GT viscous damper is just fine for all engine speeds up to at least 7,000 rpm. The damper selected for the GT500 MOD5.4 which IS different than the GT damper was proof tested to 12,000 rpm. Thus there is no need to worry about a damper burst. Claims to the contrary are just not accurate.
7) There have been statements to the effect that the harmonic balancer is somehow connected to the rpm limitation (red line) placed on the engine. Again factually inaccurate. The redline speed of the engine is determined by engineering based on the calculated drivetrain stresses (piston pin, connecting rod, crankshaft throw fillets, main bearing caps, etc.), bearing oil film performance, valvetrain stresses/dynamics and desired engine longevity. Will the engine turn faster than 6500 rpm and not fail? Absolutely! Many of the tuners bump up the electronic redline as part of the tune. Will the engine still have the durability aspects the 300 hour Certification run at the OEM recognized redline? Likely not, but that’s what we owners trade off for the increased rpm capability. And we are not likely to use all the engine longevity Ford built into the engine anyway with our limited driving use.

Sorry if this was long winded, but there appeared to be many different aspects to cover. To summarize, the viscous damper Ford supplied on the GT engine is just fine at attenuating the engine crankshaft harmonics throughout the rpm range most of us owners will ever use. Hope this helps others understand some of the complexities of this damper.
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
Thanks Indy,... always great to hear from an engineer, I know how much research you put into this and we appreciate it.
Bony
moderator

p.s. still waiting for an answer of the one question I asked on the phone yesterday.
Chris guestimated, I know it is hard for an engineer to approximate :)
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
+1
 

HeritageBruce

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Mar 13, 2006
748
Southern CA
My hat off to Indy, others, and this forum for such insightful posts which help me unerstand so much more about my car. I frequent other forums such as 6speedonline.com (Porshce), Ferrarichat.com, and Lotustalk.com but I get more from this froum by far.
Thanks again Dave.
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,102
St Augustine, Florida
That is exactly what makes this board great. :cheers
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Guys, this is an interesting post. Unfortunately quite a bit of mis-information is posted herein. I have done some research on this topic so let me try to clarify some of the points brought up to help un-confuse:

1) The crankshaft assembly we have in our GT’s is just fine for its intended design condition. 550 hp was the engine power design point at 6500 rpm redline and as Dave correctly points out many owners have moded-up to 800-900 hp and have had no reported crankshaft issues. Will you have torsional issues if you push the engine (by whatever mod you care to apply) to 1300 hp (235% of design power) and turn the engine 7500 rpm (+15% overspeed) my guess would be yes! But the engine was not DESIGNED to run at that power reliably. So if one owner chooses to run to those outlying conditions and has a problem, why is the “sky falling” for the 99.999% of us other owners? Clearly it is not.
2) The crankshaft harmonic damper selected by the Ford design engineers for the GT engine is a “viscous” damped balancer. This is a sophisticated (and expensive) damper which uses a precisely tuned weight which moves within the damper annulus to attenuate crankshaft harmonics. The annulus is filled with a (relatively temperature insensitive) viscous silicon fluid. During engine development the team spent many hours of dyno testing to determine the various “harmonics” (dynamic resonances at power of the rotating crankshaft assembly with the rods, bearings, pistons, rings and flywheel) of our GT engine crankshaft. Typically the 4th order harmonic of the engine firing order, is the most dominant mode and the OEM damper effectively dissipates this mode. I would think it reasonable that the telemetry and measuring equipment necessary to map these harmonic modes up to the 12th harmonic would be beyond most if not all aftermarket balancer companies resourses. Thus I would conclude the Ford engine team knows more about our engine dynamics than most others and if a 20 pound damper was specified, then that is what the engine needs.
3) Engine torsional and bending harmonics are difficult to understand even for most engineers. Comments such as reduced rotating mass is always a gain and thus leads to less stress on the crank are not always true. Crankshaft harmonics are not “intuitive” and often counter to what you might think is the correct answer. Thus a 10 pound damper is not ALWAYS better than a 20 pound damper just because it is 10 pounds lighter. It depends on what mass is necessary to attenuate the quantified responses. Will the engine acceleration characteristics be faster with a 10# damper vs. a 20# damper? Possibly. But in my opinion given the torque output of our blown engine and the mass of the rotating components the engine must accelerate to move the car (i.e. clutch, transaxle gears, differential, rear axles, wheels and tires) the 10# delta in damper weight could likely not be felt by the driver.
4) The viscous damper also has the attribute of providing damping over a broad range of engine rpm. The other type damper is termed “elastomeric” as it uses a compliant rubber layer between the damper hub and harmonic tuning mass. This type of damper is less expensive, narrower in its attenuation properties and not as effective as the vicious style at high rpm. Ford has opted to use a “dual-mode elastomeric” harmonic balancer for the 2008 GT500 MOD5.4 engine. Note this IS a different damper than the viscous damper used on all GT engines and is tuned to slightly different discrete frequencies. The GT500 crankshaft is slightly different than that used in the GT and thus the harmonic balancer is tuned as best the dual-mode elastomeric damper can do, for that specific engine. I would see little advantage of swapping the GT500 damper for the viscous GT damper to save the reported weight difference only to have a less effective damping system.
5) One must also consider the environment in which the component is expected to operate. Our mid-engine GT sees little if any airflow around the engine. Certainly the airflow cooling characteristics of a MOD5.4 engine in a front mounted GT500 are dissimilar to that of our GT engine. All harmonic dampers absorb and dissipate torsional vibrations. They attenuate the detrimental harmonics by converting the unwanted oscillations into heat energy. The elastomeric damper is more temperature sensitive and needs cooling air to dissipate this generated heat. Thus an application in a front engine car with cooling air bathing the engine is fine for this type of system, but not so good for a GT application which has little airflow to dissipate the converted heat energy. The viscious damper as OEM supplied is the better application here.
6) At the engine rpm ranges ALL of us owners will ever use there is NO risk of the OEM harmonic damper bursting. Certification testing of the GT balancer was made to 10,000 rpm and held for 2 minutes. The GT viscous damper is just fine for all engine speeds up to at least 7,000 rpm. The damper selected for the GT500 MOD5.4 which IS different than the GT damper was proof tested to 12,000 rpm. Thus there is no need to worry about a damper burst. Claims to the contrary are just not accurate.
7) There have been statements to the effect that the harmonic balancer is somehow connected to the rpm limitation (red line) placed on the engine. Again factually inaccurate. The redline speed of the engine is determined by engineering based on the calculated drivetrain stresses (piston pin, connecting rod, crankshaft throw fillets, main bearing caps, etc.), bearing oil film performance, valvetrain stresses/dynamics and desired engine longevity. Will the engine turn faster than 6500 rpm and not fail? Absolutely! Many of the tuners bump up the electronic redline as part of the tune. Will the engine still have the durability aspects the 300 hour Certification run at the OEM recognized redline? Likely not, but that’s what we owners trade off for the increased rpm capability. And we are not likely to use all the engine longevity Ford built into the engine anyway with our limited driving use.

Sorry if this was long winded, but there appeared to be many different aspects to cover. To summarize, the viscous damper Ford supplied on the GT engine is just fine at attenuating the engine crankshaft harmonics throughout the rpm range most of us owners will ever use. Hope this helps others understand some of the complexities of this damper.

PERFECT and Thank You; I learned some great information through your post.

Behind the scenes I have had several conversations with owners once this thread appeared and to a person I said "relax" the OEM setup is not only fine but even more so I would never replace a balancer unless the entire rotating assembly was being checked for balance even though the assembly is primary assembly is balanced within. Then add to this a given amount of weight is required ..... lighter is no always better.

Takes care

Shadowman
 

MAD IN NC

Proud Owner/ BOD blah bla
Mark IV Lifetime
Feb 14, 2006
4,211
North Carolina
That is exactly what makes this board great. :cheers

Dick - you have been busy! I was in europe, logged on while there - caught an e-mail and just returned to see that reply!

WoW - BTW - Joe's failure was due to a casting problem in the crank - not a heavy balancer! :cheers
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
PERFECT and Thank You; I learned some great information through your post.

Now if we could just get him to research and explain the engineering complexities of women. I am really interested in the advanced logic programming.
 

Spirit

Heritage GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Now if we could just get him to research and explain the engineering complexities of women. I am really interested in the advanced logic programming.

+ 1

It's way above my Pay Scale.
 

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AlohaGT

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jul 13, 2007
1,596
Honolulu, HI
+ 1

It's way above my Pay Scale.

I love that! :lol
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Dick - you have been busy! I was in europe, logged on while there - caught an e-mail and just returned to see that reply!

WoW - BTW - Joe's failure was due to a casting problem in the crank - not a heavy balancer! :cheers

I thought the GTs have a forged crank?
 

Indy GT

Yea, I got one...too
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 14, 2006
2,526
Greenwood, IN
Forged Crank

Thanks for the many PM's and posts!
Just trying to get the facts out to us owners.

Ice you are correct, the GT crank is forged. But forgings can still have surface or internal flaws which can neucleate a failure. Especially if subjected to much higher loads than the design intent. See below for amplified reading.

http://www.forgemag.com/CDA/Articles/Feature_Article/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000150463

Oh....and Mark. Not touching that topic! We all learn by OJT....
 

fjpikul

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jan 4, 2006
11,503
Belleville, IL
OK Mr. cryptic engineer, what does neucleate mean? Did your spell checker miss "nucleate?" Or is this some German term identifying a new hole?
 

Indy GT

Yea, I got one...too
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 14, 2006
2,526
Greenwood, IN
Nucleate

Thanks Frank!
Always peaceful knowing you are watching my posts and offering guidance when I slip. You caught my mistake, it is nucleate.

I will try to do a better job under your tutelage! (I looked up the spelling of this one before using....)
 
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