What can a Ford Dealer do?

[richardhead]

Not sure, but how does Pressure, Temperature and Humidity change Boost/HP readings? I would think in order to do a correct comparison these values need to be adjusted. I have no experience in this area, just a thought. I would also think that each GT will have at least a 5% difference in top HP readings even when trying to make all variables as close as possible. When trying to measure high HP I'm sure very small and subtle changes can make a big difference.

Ideal Gas Law: PV=nRT...Where P=pressure (SI unit: pascal), V=volume (SI unit:cubic meter), T=temperature (thermodynamic), R=ideal gas constant (SI: 8.3145 joules/(mol*K)...K=degrees Kelvin, n=number of moles of gas.

Equivalent Formulation: PV=NkT...Where N=3 of molecules and k=Boltzmann Constant.

 

[B O N Y]

One factor that is being dismissed, is that another supercharger that was functioning perfectly on my FGT was installed on Glenn's FGT. According to the Glenn's shop there was no significant change when the replacement blower was installed. Glenn was provided with a dyno sheet that was produced using this blower. Don't want to be a big ass, but something is really wrong here. We are at a full stop and going no where with this thread.

 

[Kingman]

Bony...stop making so much sense. :ack

 

[fjpikul]

Dear Bony, my birthday is comiong up in July. Do you think a new, big Whipple might show up as a surprise birthday present?

 

[gbvetracer]

boost answers...

I finally got some details you've been asking me. The log files are huge jeff said, so I don't have them yet but I know some things you asked.

1) We pulled boost from the vacuum line at the fuel rail pressor sensor. Jeff said this IS the same place the cars pcm pulls it in order to regulate fuel... So this should be the the best and most accurate place to measure boost, right?

2) The load table on the car is also a problem. Its moving up and down in a similar pattern to the boost table. The data is pulled from the manifold pressure sensor. Jeff said he verified all the data and voltage and this sensor doesn't appear to be bad. But this IS a problem is says.

He believes our problem must be "mechanical" not pcm or electrical related... I'm wanting a leak down and compression test done, just for the heck of it....

Thanks for your help....

 

[cobrar1339]

The leak down is a good idea for peace of mind. A weak or broken valve spring should be ruled out.

 

[gbvetracer]

boost indash agrees with dyno numbers...

Drove the car tonight...and noticed the boost gauge indash seemed to agree with the dyno measurements.... Although the car runs fine, im not happy knowing the boost is 2-3 lbs low... The bottom line question now seems to be; What can affect boost (other then the bypass valve) that may be pcm or electrical or sensor related? Im far from an expert, but what I tell from my research, tells me it must be mechanical.... which means really bad, and serious stuff... If the bottom end is leaking boost around a ring, or in the heads through a valve or spring..... this stuff would be a MAJOR nightmare to repair.... Im praying there "could" somehow be something we've overlooked elsewhere... Thanks for anymore ideas.... :confused

 

[everetto]

I finally got some details you've been asking me. The log files are huge jeff said, so I don't have them yet but I know some things you asked.

1) We pulled boost from the vacuum line at the fuel rail pressor sensor. Jeff said this IS the same place the cars pcm pulls it in order to regulate fuel... So this should be the the best and most accurate place to measure boost, right?

Thank you Glenn for getting this info. I for one do not know the pros and cons of measuring boost from this location, but I would be interested to hear from those who may know. Maybe FreeFlyer can help, as he is experienced with this subject due to his work on the new boost gauge.

Thanks again for the info, and hopefully your issue will be worked out soon.

Everett

 

[gbvetracer]

everett

Hey thanks...and just so ya know, i PM'd freeflyer a few days ago and waiting to hear what he says... im waiting on the regional ford service mgr to let me know if and when we can take the car to the dealer... im STILL waiting to hear if the dealers scan tool can measure boost....

 

[freeflyer]

I sent a response via PM last Sunday to your questions.

 

[gbvetracer]

free flyer...

Im still waiting to hear about IF where we pulled the boost is the best place. I also checked the indash gauge and it does seem to match..... Also, wondering if ANYONE knows if the ford dealers scan tool can monitor boost if we go for a drive....?? thanks....

 

[gbvetracer]

more tests...and still cant find fix/problem...

Today we ran the leak-down and compression tests...and found nothing wrong. We also checked the throttle cable to make SURE it wasnt too loose and keeping us from hitting true WOT to achieve max boost... More bad news today when a local top mechanic said he knows of NO way to measure boost at the dealer... when asked for his advise.... he said to take the car to a performance shop! Obviously he didnt realize we've already been doing that for months now! If ANYONE has any other ideas... please let us know. We will soon have another dyno's boost measurements to know for SURE our boost IS in fact a problem. At this point, the indash gauge and the dyno match... but were working on getting multiple sources for definitive data. Forgetting the wavy boost line and load line from the dyno, we are still down about 2 pounds of boost on the max end... so this is NOT acceptable. Bolting a whipple on the gal isnt a fix either... since obviously the whipple would also then be unable to produce the promised boost... Thanks for ANY help... and thanks for all the suggestions thus far. AND a special thanks again to Bony for letting us test with his stock blower....

 

[freeflyer]

?!

Again, where you pulled the boost is fine as long as your pulling actual manifold presure/vacuum, not intercepting the factory electric signal. Also, like I said don´t trust the factory gauge. GOOD LUCK I hope you find your problem.
Michael

 

[gbvetracer]

stock boost

So if pulled from this correct spot, what are YOU seeing on stock FGT's ? Im seeing 11.9-12.0 on the cars Ive seen the dynos from, but I dont know where they pulled the boost from... Our car only shows 10.14 max...

 

[nota4re]

I vote that we close the thread and then we can all go snipe hunting - which might yield better results.

 

[gbvetracer]

snipe hunting...

snipe hunting would be easier! If you want the thread closed, why are you posting? Just ignore it? This whole boost thing has been a nightmare... which im suprised more guys havent also run into...

 

[MR2Race]

It will just drive you crazy.

Afternoon guys

In a note Bony asked if I had read 'WHAT CAN A DEALER DO' thread.
And like they say, like an a…s hole, everyone has an opinion.
So here is mine.

All of you have a point:


Heffner Performance is correct:
“I don't see cause for concern with any of the above graphs. Theoretically your boost curve should be smooth but theory and reality is often somewhat different”.

All data systems have a method to smooth the data curve. Or average the points that make up the line or curve we see on any graph. And sometimes it is build into a software package and the user may not even know he is filtering data.
In my opinion this dyno sheet may not have much smoothing or filtering (a good thing). We would call this a raw plot. The dips would not be a problem if it was my car. It looks very typical. Not unlike I have seen in the past.
Any MS excel users can now step forward now.
Any group of data points can be filtered to smoth out the noise and make a presented curve fit appear to look uniform. Even when it is not, so please do not place too much value on a uniform line on a graph.



AZGT Is also correct:
“It has been mentioned that the car from he factory does not hit full performance until after 100 miles or so many starts or something like that”.

There is a porter calibration that disappears after the first 100 miles.
It is there to keep us from doing any damage during the engine break-in



DBK & Nota4re are also correct:
“Crank HP and rear wheel HP are never the same”.

The drive train (Transaxle) loses are around 7.5% for the FGT (quite low as compared to other cars)
So the net power (Crank hp) into the Transaxle & out to the tire, we lose power to friction as heat.
So when I subtract 7.5% from 550 hp. I feel this car is performing above average. :thumbsup

Then there is the boost gauge question. Like everything there is build tolerance.
And without a calibrated lab quality gauge. There will always be a built in error in all measurement devices. And your dash boost gauge. May be actually closer to actual than most others. We will never know unless we perform a calibration spot check on a group of boost gauges.
As is the case with an engine. The build tolerance of any machine will allow differences in peak performance.


My two cents, if the engine had a big enough leak (Leak-down) to reduce the boost level.
It would become apparent. The blow-by gasses would be forcing oil out
And would be filling the intake with oil just before the throttle plates. When you removed the blower it would have been apperant and dripping with engine oil.
An intake system wet and dripping with oil is the first indication of a leak-down problem on any boosted engine. Even one with a dry sump system.


Side note- The boost sensor the ECU uses is electric. And it is located under the blower between the huffer and the intercooler. The perfect spot but tough to tap into.

Any pro race team will not Race dynos, it is a fruitless pastime. So please do not use-up the car racing dynos all over the country. It will just drive you crazy. And you will always have more questions after the test than you had before. This is just a fact of life for a development test guy.

A chassis dyno is a valuable tool to rate a change in performance. Before and after a part change. But you should not consider one tools performance to define an absolute number. As there are operating parameters that are out of your control.
And can not be duplicated repeat ably out side in the real world.


Bill Oxley also makes a point - the proof is on the pavement.

Make sure it is not broken. (And from what I have read this car is good)

And have fun driving it! :thumbsup



The first rule of test data – do not assume you are looking at absolute numbers. As we are not operating in a vacuum

:cheers

 

[gbvetracer]

ok, i give up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok guys, thank you ALL for your time, comments and help. Im in agreement that the car makes decent power. Problem is, until another FGT is tested on the exact same dyno, we'll just never know how it compares. I only ask one thing now; How much boost do these cars make stock? Shouldnt boost on ALL the cars be pretty darn close? I know RWHP and torque will vary some, but would think the boost would be VERY close. If my tuners boost measurement is correct, then others we have seen must be incorrect OR our car for some mysterious reason is about 2 lbs lower then others on boost. PLEASE lets at least agree on what these cars should make on boost... thats ALL IM NOW ASKING. I give up on the wavy line and the wavy load table that our tuner insists is a problem. Should these indash gauges all read about the same? I mean EVEN if they arent accurate, wouldnt they ALL be the same? Mine with the stock pulley reads about 11 lbs under full boost... is this about what others are seeing? Thanks again for your time guys...

 

[dbtgt]

Afternoon guys

In a note Bony asked if I had read 'WHAT CAN A DEALER DO' thread.
And like they say, like an a…s hole, everyone has an opinion.
So here is mine.

All of you have a point:


Heffner Performance is correct:
“I don't see cause for concern with any of the above graphs. Theoretically your boost curve should be smooth but theory and reality is often somewhat different”.

All data systems have a method to smooth the data curve. Or average the points that make up the line or curve we see on any graph. And sometimes it is build into a software package and the user may not even know he is filtering data.
In my opinion this dyno sheet may not have much smoothing or filtering (a good thing). We would call this a raw plot. The dips would not be a problem if it was my car. It looks very typical. Not unlike I have seen in the past.
Any MS excel users can now step forward now.
Any group of data points can be filtered to smoth out the noise and make a presented curve fit appear to look uniform. Even when it is not, so please do not place too much value on a uniform line on a graph.



AZGT Is also correct:
“It has been mentioned that the car from he factory does not hit full performance until after 100 miles or so many starts or something like that”.

There is a porter calibration that disappears after the first 100 miles.
It is there to keep us from doing any damage during the engine break-in



DBK & Nota4re are also correct:
“Crank HP and rear wheel HP are never the same”.

The drive train (Transaxle) loses are around 7.5% for the FGT (quite low as compared to other cars)
So the net power (Crank hp) into the Transaxle & out to the tire, we lose power to friction as heat.
So when I subtract 7.5% from 550 hp. I feel this car is performing above average. :thumbsup

Then there is the boost gauge question. Like everything there is build tolerance.
And without a calibrated lab quality gauge. There will always be a built in error in all measurement devices. And your dash boost gauge. May be actually closer to actual than most others. We will never know unless we perform a calibration spot check on a group of boost gauges.
As is the case with an engine. The build tolerance of any machine will allow differences in peak performance.


My two cents, if the engine had a big enough leak (Leak-down) to reduce the boost level.
It would become apparent. The blow-by gasses would be forcing oil out
And would be filling the intake with oil just before the throttle plates. When you removed the blower it would have been apperant and dripping with engine oil.
An intake system wet and dripping with oil is the first indication of a leak-down problem on any boosted engine. Even one with a dry sump system.


Side note- The boost sensor the ECU uses is electric. And it is located under the blower between the huffer and the intercooler. The perfect spot but tough to tap into.

Any pro race team will not Race dynos, it is a fruitless pastime. So please do not use-up the car racing dynos all over the country. It will just drive you crazy. And you will always have more questions after the test than you had before. This is just a fact of life for a development test guy.

A chassis dyno is a valuable tool to rate a change in performance. Before and after a part change. But you should not consider one tools performance to define an absolute number. As there are operating parameters that are out of your control.
And can not be duplicated repeat ably out side in the real world.


Bill Oxley also makes a point - the proof is on the pavement.

Make sure it is not broken. (And from what I have read this car is good)

And have fun driving it! :thumbsup



The first rule of test data – do not assume you are looking at absolute numbers. As we are not operating in a vacuum

:cheers

What a great, experienced based response. A few quarter mile times would probably answer this issue definitively and for not much $$. :thumbsup

 

[MR2Race]

I only ask one thing now; How much boost do these cars make stock? Shouldnt boost on ALL the cars be pretty darn close? ...

Short answer:

Without a doing tons of work and spending time and money investigating. You will not be able locate the reason for lower boost pressure than other cars.

And in the end it will be a built tolerance stack up problem.

Meaning - All the parts in a system (engine in this case) separately each part can pass all quality requirements. And fit into the measurement process as a good part.

But when all the parts are assembled into a working, running system it will be slightly different than other systems on one area. But greater in some other measure of performance in a different area.

I know this is not easy to hear when your boost readings are slightly less than others. I feel your pain.
But trust me your car is healthy. With 500 hp at the wheels it is a good strong performer.

This is the reason why other car makers do not place actual numbers on dash gauges. And it is possible to build dash gauges that can be manipulated (cheated)
So you have no real idea what is happening. This not the case W/ the FGT.
A dash gauge can be softened or dampened in a zone so all cars appear to operate the same as others cars. The GT has none of that stuff.

Your car is not flawed.
I have seen cars that only read 10 PSI. max boost
And test @ the wheels lower than your car ..

It is my opinion that if you keep pushing Ford. The answer will be the same.
Your Dyno numbers are good, it is a good strong car.