question about brakes to alex from cobrar

[cobrar1339]

Electronic brake intervention on the FGT is Both EBD and ABS.

Its calibration was build around the best performing metal rotor brake package available.

If you dig into the Brembo Monoblock Caliper design used on the GT. You will find the stiffest unit money can buy in a production based car. And the Brembo Rotors are more efficient than most Carbon Street super car rotors.

It is my opinion that unless you are ready to do a real development project.

Using a high end data system & first define the ability of the production system.

Then Remove the ABS & EBD systems from the car.
Install a dual master cylinder race pedal package.
And then try your aftermarket big brake stuff.
Only then will you be able to make any improvement in brake performance.

My gut tells me that the brake efficiency gained will be quite small in relationship the amount of work and time required.

As for Willwood calipers, I think they are quite good as far as cost to value ratio.
But they are not even close when it comes to stiffness ratio.
And that is where the real brake system efficiency is rooted.

I feel it will be hard to improve on the stock parts.
With any aftermarket parts (that are reasonable for street use).
Unless you go to bigger high end (Brembo type or carbon street use) rotors in larger rims with high end calipers.

I would love to go track testing with a team that is ready to develop a package for the track.

But in reality any “big hitter” serious improvements will reduces the effectiveness on the street.

There are small things that will improve the stock stuff, but no big hitters.


Then there is brake balance front to rear.
The same Electronic brake intervention (EBD) controls the systems balance.
And the only way to affect the balance front to rear would be to eliminate the EBD.
This is way too much work to be practical no all but a full time track car.

The good news is the FGT has class leading brakes from the factory.

Good stuff Alex ! Thanks, but a couple other questions to make sure I have it straight on the EBD impact.

Alex, I can only assume here. So set me straight. Good rotors like the Ford Racing or OEM should not be a problem, right?

The concern's would be strictly with the caliper/master cylinder combo volume and the EBD programming, correct?

Finally, how does pad compound come into play, if at all, can or does EBD adjust for this to some degree?

 

[B O N Y]

I moved the above post off the thread warning about the WILDWOOD BRAKE ISSUE
I want to keep that on topic.

 

[kmillen]

I hope you don't mind but I would like to offer another opinion on this subject.

There is definitely room to improve the braking system for the Ford GT. The Brembo caliper used is the F40/F50 caliper that has been around for the past 20 years. It is the best street/O.E.M caliper that Brembo offers but it can definitely be improved upon. As many people have found out it is the same caliper used by Mitsubishi, Nissan, and pretty much every Brembo brake upgrade for street cars.

When developing our GT for the Targa rally we upgraded to AP Racing brakes. We use 2-piece cross-drilled/slotted floating rotors with 6 piston AP Racing calipers. The rotor is slightly larger than the factory rotor (limited by wheel selection) but allows for better cooling and lighter weight. With the extra clamping points (2 extra pistons) in the 6 piston AP Racing caliper we are also able to increase the pressure applied. Thus slowing the car down even more.

AP Racing is actually owned by Brembo but it is the top tier division of Brembo. Some of the cars using AP Racing brakes are the Bugatti Veyron, Aston Martin, Konigsegg, and Lotus. AP is also on most Formula one cars, NASCAR, Champ and Indy cars and even World Rally Championship cars.

The factory brakes are good, as proved by Heffner Performance in the 0-200-0 test. But, there is definitely room for improvement. When Camillo Pardo was out in California for the Ford GT Rally we let him drive our orange car. His exact words were "Holy sh!t, these brakes are incredible! These are the brakes that should have come on this car."

 

[MR2Race]

Although it was fun doing stopies with a car.

Cobrar1339

The GT uses the same calipers piston sizes front and rear.

In theory you could use any caliper as long as you used it front and rear.
With out compromising the system balance. And EBD would not know the different.
As long as you do not change the tire and rotor diameter ratios / front to rear.
Just keep the percentage splits the same as stock.
As the EBD is counting on the difference in axle rotation to make it brake balance changes.
(Remember none of this has been tested, or endorsed By Ford and is just an opinion)

The chance that of the shelf larger rotors will be the correct size is low. And you would need to have parts made, tested and developed.
(Anyone wants to do this I love to manage the data collection, testing and report side)



The GT comes with rotors that are purchased from Brembo.
And they perform like the rotors we used in Winston Cup short track racing.
In hard on track usage they are only good for 2 sets of pads. On the third set they will begin to transfer and smear the pad material and the pedal will begin to feel strange.
(The rotor material is too hard to resurface with a normal brake lathe).

So in track testing we treated them like Race rotors. And replaced them after every second pad swap.

Yes this Electronic Brake stuff sounds like a big pain in the A@@.

But the car stops at -1.3 Gs. Every time straight as a string.
And the competition is using this car as there development target, It’s a good thing!

I was lucky enough to drive one of the centennial cars. In braking tests after the 100 year deal. And they did not have ABS or EBD installed.
Although it was fun doing stopies with a car.

It would not be safe or as efficient in a panic stop with the rear wheels off the ground.

 

[MR2Race]

I personally like the idea of 6 piston brakes front and rear.

The pedal stroke may become longer, but that could be a good thing.
It could actually make heal toe shifting easier.
And ease pedal modulation and pedal force as well.

Always thought the brake pedal stroke length was a bit short for my taste.

It would be fun to do a down town track test with a race data system and report the findings?

 

[kmillen]

I personally like the idea of 6 piston brakes front and rear.

The pedal stroke may become longer, but that could be a good thing.
It could actually make heal toe shifting easier.
And ease pedal modulation and pedal force as well.

Always thought the brake pedal stroke length was a bit short for my taste.

It would be fun to do a down town track test with a race data system and report the findings?

We just finished our 6-piston rear kit for the GT. It even retains the factory parking brake.

If you're ever in California please feel free to stop by and drive our car. I would like to get your opinion on the brakes. We are very proud of how well they perform.

 

[MR2Race]

Changing the Master Cyl. Bore will only change the pedal stroke distance on an EBD equipped car.
And will not have an effect on brake balance like a normal car would.

As far as pad material goes, it is my feeling that if the same pad is used front and rear there will be no unusual problems.

But if you were to use race pads on just one end of the car, my thought are the EBD would attempt to regain the system balance.
And try to offset the intended balance change you were looking for.

It would be fun to try, but I would do it on a rented air strip.
By running max g stops over and over until to the point of fade.
And evaluate the performance before going to the track.

Just be careful and have fun.

 

[Shadowman]

My 2 cents

Wheels, tires, exhaust, and the typically referred to BBK aka big brake kits are a staple of the automotive aftermarket's food chain however because they are sold does not mean that they are better; generally just different; in fact sadly all too often they do not perform as well as OEM in the a-typical environment and many folks find themselves with a lapel pin associated with a BBK but behind the scenes share that they do not perform as they has expected.

Now as for whether the calipers as presented on the Ford GT came from "as designed" for a gal a few years ago aka the F40 mechanically means nothing (unless you like the F40 and the relationship to it) not to mention the reference to them being less than current technology is IMO a silly comment.

From what I understood and was generously shared by Alex; the braking system of the Ford GT went through miles and miles of extensive testing and in the end the brake package as assembled not only works but works very well even though the secondary systems can be and apparently are a PITA to work with much less work around.

Now this is not to discount the idea of 6 piston AP's or ?? as an alternative. The same holds true for the conversations of days gone past with regards to ceramic rotors however I would expect that thorough testing be done before such a project is signed off on and presented as viable and not simply a seat of the pants opinion.

My gut tells me that Stillen has worked hard to develop an alternate well balanced system with a specific goal in mind; increased pedal throw thereby allowing for easier brake/throttle modulation. Certainly for the track enthusiast this could be a good thing however people also need to know that as with many of the aftermarket BBK systems there are often times compromises such as pad material design and whether the pad is just as responsive the first time that you use it aka stone cold versus at temperature after warm up laps on the track.
The other thing that I heard no mention of is caliper bore sizing as well as differential bore sizing within a given caliper. To say that a 6 piston caliper = greater pedal stroke is akin to saying that all 6 piston calipers have the same piston bore size thereby requiring the same fluid mass movement hence pedal travel to effect a stop; this is not the case

Now I am no expert brake person however I know that an increased number of pistons within a caliper affords certainly the possibly of greater clamping force based on a laundry list of variable but more important is the fact that the pressure can be distributed more evenly across the entire pad. Now this brings me to differential bores; now this technology takes multiple bore calipers (IMO) to an even greater level because through the process of have different size pistons within a given caliper one can further define the exact pressure point percentage across the entire brake pad.

So in the end how does one tend to the brakes on their gal; leave them as received aka OEM ...... purchase an alternate ....... ?

There is no doubt that the brake system that she arrived with is extremely good and operates consistently throughout a variety of driving conditions as such if an alternate system is to be considered IMO it needs to offer something more supported by empirical data and not simply "damn those brakes feel good"

For now I feel safe knowing that the Brembo package as installed on my gal will treat me well whether running down to get some milk or I dare say "at speed". I am not prepared to see how well an alternate brake system works
only to find out that they are less than stellar during a moment in time that I can only hang on and pray.

All the best and takes care

Shadowman

 

[dbk]

When Camillo Pardo was out in California for the Ford GT Rally we let him drive our orange car. His exact words were "Holy sh!t, these brakes are incredible! These are the brakes that should have come on this car."

I can verify this. He wouldn't shut up about them. :lol

 

[cobrar1339]

Bony thanks for moving the original post.

Alex thanks for your response and the others that offered up even more contrast. A great read and very informative:thumbsup. It seams that from the engineering side all agree in theory about how a BBK should be put together for a GT.


I for one am very happy with the brakes and have no complaints as yet. To be honest, I have not beat it hard enough to use them to the absolute max, but close enough to say the GT team did a fantastic job:thumbsup. As Alex mentioned, if there is a weak spot it is in the heel/toe ergonomics.

To Shadowman's points on SOME slap and go systems. Development data is not always collected on a specific vehicle. It may have been modeled and well thought out, but not totally confirmed.

I have seen plenty that can be a real step backwards. I have seen this with the C6Z where a reputable company had sold kits to guys and major issues developed. I have seen it so bad that you had to pump the pedal between turns to even get a pedal. Turns out the problem is solved with some sort of in-line pressure valve. The system is marketed for hard track use, yet this was not figured out before it made it's way to the customers. Some guys never drove hard enough to have the problem. Pretty obvious the development team did not either. But the top drivers in a race series realized the problem after just a few hard laps.

I have also seen a GT with a BBK lock a front wheel briefly on a hard decel. I doubt it would have ever been felt in normal driving. I bet it feels great, but as Shadowman suggests, it is the moment that is NOT NORMAL when you need the brakes to behave their best. BTW the car had stock brakes on the rear.

However, as time passes even better parts come available, it never hurts to explore the possibilities with real testing and development. We are fortunate to have Kyle and the Stillen team working on the next step.Guess we need to find Alex an air strip in Calif, so he can get out of the cold and have some fun.

If seriously interested I may be able to get the Sheriff's dept EVOC facility for a Saturday morning. about 3/8 mile in the longest area, but the brakes better work or you are in :willy

 

[kmillen]

Cobra and Shadow-

I apologize if my post came off as harsh or offensive. Or if anyone felt that I was implying that the brakes on the GT are bad. I am not trying to say that the factory Brembo brakes are bad brakes. Like I said in my first post, Heffner demonstrated how good they are when they won the 0-200-0 test with the stock brakes.

I am simply trying to say that improvements can be made and we are working very hard on improving every part of the car we can. Obviously it is a business for us but at the same time, everything that we build has seen hundreds of miles of development testing on the Targa rally. We never sold a single product until after we returned from New Zealand. Also, starting this year we will be searching for more events/races to compete in with our GT.

For most owner's, the factory brakes will work perfectly fine and there is absolutely no need to even consider changing them out. However, for people that are looking to really push the car and take it to the limits, an AP Racing brake kit would be beneficial.

Cobra- We are 100% confident in the brakes that we've developed for the GT. I can't speak for Steve's schedule but we would definitely be willing to put the brakes to the test. Maybe we can arrange somewhere/sometime to perform the tests.

I am pretty sure that he will be attending the Ford GT track day, this might be a good day for any testing?

 

[cobrar1339]

Kyle, it's hard to get tone from a typed post sometimes.

I appreicate what your team is doing and am very confident that you have the resources and people to do the homework and provide a great product.

You have been providing great products for many other fine cars for years. You guys have been an asset to the GT community:thumbsup. I guess mine came off different than intended, I did not read yours as harsh or offensive. My apologies, if mine did.

Also, I was not suggesting your product had issues. I have no reason to doubt your confidence.

As far as testing goes. I was just trying to give Alex a good reason to get out of the cold. :biggrin

Take care.

 

[californiacuda]

Soft compound tires will have the largest effect on stopping distance and neg acceleration, not brake stuff change.

Only if the front to rear balance is off, or if the rotors are overheated and need to be bigger for better cooling, will the brake system affect stopping distance. All the other stuff talked about is BS.

Go to stoptech website for some accurate info.

 

[Shadowman]

Cobra and Shadow-

I apologize if my post came off as harsh or offensive. Or if anyone felt that I was implying that the brakes on the GT are bad. I am not trying to say that the factory Brembo brakes are bad brakes. Like I said in my first post, Heffner demonstrated how good they are when they won the 0-200-0 test with the stock brakes.

I am simply trying to say that improvements can be made and we are working very hard on improving every part of the car we can. Obviously it is a business for us but at the same time, everything that we build has seen hundreds of miles of development testing on the Targa rally. We never sold a single product until after we returned from New Zealand. Also, starting this year we will be searching for more events/races to compete in with our GT.

For most owner's, the factory brakes will work perfectly fine and there is absolutely no need to even consider changing them out. However, for people that are looking to really push the car and take it to the limits, an AP Racing brake kit would be beneficial.

Cobra- We are 100% confident in the brakes that we've developed for the GT. I can't speak for Steve's schedule but we would definitely be willing to put the brakes to the test. Maybe we can arrange somewhere/sometime to perform the tests.

I am pretty sure that he will be attending the Ford GT track day, this might be a good day for any testing?

I appreciate your respectful concern however no apology was needed

You and your team have brought and continue to bring some wonderful items to the Ford GT community not to mention the technical support that you share as well.

I in no way wanted to discount your brake offering as I suspect that whatever you offer will be well thought out and consistent in caliber and operation befitting of these gals but rather I wanted to nix the idea that we have bad brakes and that as flies to the light find folks drawn to something that was not fully understood.

As I shared I am no brake expert and yet I have been in the business of tweaking gals for a very long time during which sadly I have met far too many members of PT Barnum's family. This has become an industry (again sadly) where all too often something is presented with a statement so bold that for many they assume it must be true followed by comments from folks that are already accepted in the community hence validating it and then before long this becomes the basis of fact and so the legend grows; or as I say there is typically no group conscience meaning "one lies....... and another swears by it as such it must be true" when far too often it is total self serving BS.

In any case; I am sorry to have rambled a bit but the BS marketing as is too often used throughout this industry is a pet peeve of mine; I dislike it very much

Now in closing let me reiterate that I truly enjoy the comments that you and your team share, the quality products that you and your team have and hopefully will continue to make available for the Ford GT community and the fact that you have a Ford GT in your stable whereas far too many companies have barely a picture on their wall from which they attempt to create and market widgets for these gals.

All the best and by all means keep up the great work.

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[B O N Y]

This is a great thread,..

However, we are appreciative that it originated from the WILDWOOD ALERT thread that you started. Hopefully everyone running that set up is taking the necessary action.


Bony
mod

 

[Indy GT]

Great post Bill.
Your insight is always well conceived and eloquently developed.
Thanks as always for your aftermarket compass.