GT Performance on a Track

[GTMikey]

I was talking to the shop who restored both my Shelby GT500's. He also races heavily in the midwest and nationally on the vintage Nascar circuit and often wins. I asked him his thoughts on a Ford GT and his reply was they are great cars except the brakes in his opinion were poorly designed.

his thoughts:

"It has crappy brakes/tires (on the street they are OK but at an open track day they'll fade in only 4-5 laps). They need better rotors, friction, and air. They're a little on the heavy side at 3,500 lbs vs. the original GT40 that weighed a svelt 2020 lb's with an FE out back. I drove a GT at the Autobahn last summer and ran almost as fast as I did with my Busch Stock car with 100 more HP and on slicks!"

Have any of you guys put other rotors or ever experienced brake issues on the street or track?

Just educating myself.

Mike

 

[closeshave]

I was talking to the shop who restored both my Shelby GT500's. He also races heavily in the midwest and nationally on the vintage Nascar circuit and often wins. I asked him his thoughts on a Ford GT and his reply was they are great cars except the brakes in his opinion were poorly designed.

his thoughts:

"It has crappy brakes/tires (on the street they are OK but at an open track day they'll fade in only 4-5 laps). They need better rotors, friction, and air. They're a little on the heavy side at 3,500 lbs vs. the original GT40 that weighed a svelt 2020 lb's with an FE out back. I drove a GT at the Autobahn last summer and ran almost as fast as I did with my Busch Stock car with 100 more HP and on slicks!"

Have any of you guys put other rotors or ever experienced brake issues on the street or track?

Just educating myself.

Mike

A stock GT is a car that’s set up to be driven on the road. Of course the stock brakes are going to fade and the tyres overheat on a track. What do you expect? If it was set up to run lots of laps without issues it would be impossible to drive on the road. Any road car is the same.

 

[911teo]

I think your shop guy has not done his homework on the GT.

The stock set up might fade a little after 5-6 hot laps on a brake demanding track (lots of turns and short straights).

BUT all you need to do is swap the pads for racing ones and swap the brake fluid to one with a higher boiling point.

Since he's a racer I assume he thought these basic upgrades had been performed to the car when that was not the case.

The stock pads are really just street pads and they will fade.

Pagid has come out with a new compound (RS15 - Gray) which is wonderful. Nice bite and perfect modulation. Also their effective temp range is wider than any other compound. They area fantastic upgrade.

Use also a different fluid. I like ATE blue, or Castrol SRF (very high WET boiling point, even though a little pricey).

Regarding major upgrades bigger rotors are not available. You can go the Stillen route and get slotted rotors and floating hats. This will improve the heath build up slightly.
Also you can get bigger calipers (for bigger pads). Again you do it if you find that your Pagid pads are going up in smoke... Not likely.

So why spend a lot of resources to come up with a brake upgrade like that. Because those brakes need to last more than 1h on the track, with superheavy use and when paired with slicks.

Also the bigger pads allow for a softer compound which in turns will wear the rotors less.

The caliper themselves do not need any upgrade in terms of clamping force. The tyres are th weak link there.

 

[PL510*Jeff]

The GT is a street car. That does very well on a race track.

I just love it when terms like "crappy" are thrown out for effect. And repeated "as gospel" over and over. Jeremey Clarkston comements come to to mind.

There are many areas in which changes can be made to improve its track performance capability. As 911teo has mentioned earlier.

The majority of GT owners will never come close to finding the performance limits of their GT's. And most will never track their cars. And those that do will enjoy the ride.

The comments from "the shop" guy address two items, brakes/tires, that are commonly upgraded in all cars for better performance on a race track. The sense that the oem equipment is less than satisfactory is just not true.

Mike, you need to experience the GT yourself. I'm sure you'll be impressed.

 

[dbk]

The tires are hard, but they are street tires. I have no idea where he's getting the brake thing. I've beat the hell out of my car on a track, and one insanely punishing mountain roads and they don't fade/suck.

 

[911teo]

I track the GT fairly often. The rotor/caliper combination is one of the last item I would touch.

Race pads and fluid is all you need. It means squealing breaks and tons of brake dust, but this is the trade off you pay.

Tyres are also misunderstood. The GY Supercar are not the ultimate in grip. This has 2 consequences. They are easier on the brakes, they are more forgiving.
If you switch to Hoosiers for example the coefficient of friction will go up, improving your braking performance but putting stress on the system. You see where I am going?

I think changing things just for the sake of it (or because a sigle element can improve on the stock component) is not the best way to go when taking a car, any car, to the race track.

If you really need to do something then I would change the shocks. Not because the GT's ones are bad, but you should stiffen up the rear a little to reduce the understeering.

On the market there are several options topped by the 3 way adjustable shocks.

I'd say you should take the car to the track and become one with it. The GT is fairly neutral and easy to drive fast. The top 10% of its performance is the difficult one to access (also because of the fear or putting $200k in the wall).

Become consistent, lap after lap. If the brakes fade work with them. Change your braking technique. Brake less. And if that means limiting yourself to 140 rather than 170mph at the end of the straight don't worry. I am willing to bet you'll be cleaner around the turns, will be able to accelerate earlier and the lap times will go down as well....

 

[ENZO BTR]

I tracked my car a couple months ago and, with stock brake pads and fluid, it KICKED ASS. I did put on the Hoosiers to ensure maximum grip, but the braking system dealt with it just fine, and I was doing 140-plus on the straights and 120 through turn 8 at Willow Springs (should have been doing 130, but as Teo says the fear of damaging my baby kept me out of the cars upper 10-15% of capabilities).

Anyway, I had the GT guys upgrade the pads and fluid, not because it didn't perform well but because it had 13,000 miles on the stock system and figured I should service the brakes after that track day. And as long as I was in there I had the Guys put in some upgraded components -- just in case the next track day is more aggressive.

But I wouldn't hesitate to drive a totally stock GT on a track with full confidence it would be up to the task in ALL areas.

 

[PL510*Jeff]

I tracked my car a couple months ago and, with stock brake pads and fluid, it KICKED ASS. I did put on the Hoosiers to ensure maximum grip, but the braking system dealt with it just fine, and I was doing 140-plus on the straights and 120 through turn 8 at Willow Springs (should have been doing 130, but as Teo says the fear of damaging my baby kept me out of the cars upper 10-15% of capabilities).

Anyway, I had the GT guys upgrade the pads and fluid, not because it didn't perform well but because it had 13,000 miles on the stock system and figured I should service the brakes after that track day. And as long as I was in there I had the Guys put in some upgraded components -- just in case the next track day is more aggressive.

But I wouldn't hesitate to drive a totally stock GT on a track with full confidence it would be up to the task in ALL areas.

Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ed Sims]

idiot

That guy is an idiot & definitely doesn't know the GT. I've driven over 1000 miles on the track on stock pads (fresh fluid a lot) & the stock rotors + the Ford 2 piece rotors. I have yet to see significant fade at respectable speeds in a 20-30 minute session. Some of the braking is from 145 to 55mph lap after lap. However, it may not be idiocy but envy. Either way I spell it with a "L".

Ed

PS There are many great posts on brakes on the site. Do a search.

 

[kosupply]

I was talking to the shop who restored both my Shelby GT500's. He also races heavily in the midwest and nationally on the vintage Nascar circuit and often wins. I asked him his thoughts on a Ford GT and his reply was they are great cars except the brakes in his opinion were poorly designed.

his thoughts:

"It has crappy brakes/tires (on the street they are OK but at an open track day they'll fade in only 4-5 laps). They need better rotors, friction, and air. They're a little on the heavy side at 3,500 lbs vs. the original GT40 that weighed a svelt 2020 lb's with an FE out back. I drove a GT at the Autobahn last summer and ran almost as fast as I did with my Busch Stock car with 100 more HP and on slicks!"

Have any of you guys put other rotors or ever experienced brake issues on the street or track?

Just educating myself.

Mike

Did not notice any brake fade on stock tires. Did notice fade with the Hoosiers. Probably carrying more speed into the corners with the Hoosiers.

 

[GTMikey]

That guy is an idiot & definitely doesn't know the GT. I've driven over 1000 miles on the track on stock pads (fresh fluid a lot) & the stock rotors + the Ford 2 piece rotors. I have yet to see significant fade at respectable speeds in a 20-30 minute session. Some of the braking is from 145 to 55mph lap after lap. However, it may not be idiocy but envy. Either way I spell it with a "L".

Ed

PS There are many great posts on brakes on the site. Do a search.

He owns and races Dale Earnhardt's old stock car and has been racing 30+ years. He restored both my Shelby's, I trust his opinion.

Ease up, it's only freaking brakes.

 

[B O N Y]

I have sent M Herman on vacation for 90 days.
We are an owners forum.
Please lets not talk about vintage racing where you bang a fender you go off to no man's land. Tell me you vintage race at Goodwood, and I will stop and listen...


Meanwhile, I have yet to drive any vintage racer that has brakes equal to a Ford GT.

Good bye Mr. Herman

 

[HHGT]

Drinks are on me guys...

For what its worth I know Mike Herman and he's a good guy. I know he was very close to buying a Heritage from an owner here on the forum and through one of the forum sponsors, but the deal did not go through. He loves our cars and I know he wants to be an owner. Out of goodwill he is also organizing a day at a local car collectors garage and just for the GT owners.

Cheers!

Sam

 

[B O N Y]

Sam, the reason this forum works, it is because we are an owner's forum. If he biuys a FGT before his 90 day vacation is up, I will lift the ban.

 

[HHGT]

Sam, the reason this forum works, it is because we are an owner's forum. If he biuys a FGT before his 90 day vacation is up, I will lift the ban.

Fair enough Bony and

I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU!

 

[GTMikey]

Bony has a big heart and I was let back in.

Sorry for any off base comment or getting off track. This is probably the best run forum I have been on and you guys have been great with phone calls and pm's with suggestions on cars, thank you.

Regards,

Mike

 

[HHGT]

Bony has a big heart and I was let back in.

Sorry for any off base comment or getting off track. This is probably the best run forum I have been on and you guys have been great with phone calls and pm's with suggestions on cars, thank you.

Regards,

Mike

Your punishment is to buy all of us breakfast at the next C&C..

 

[B O N Y]

water under the bridge, welcome back

 

[GTMikey]

Sounds like a deal to me as long as you guys don't want to go the Four Seasons or Beverly Hills Hotel.

Will a #2 at Mcdonald's supersized do the trick?

 

[PL510*Jeff]

Sounds like a deal to me as long as you guys don't want to go the Four Seasons or Beverly Hills Hotel.

Will a #2 at Mcdonald's supersized do the trick?

As long as you SUPERSIZE it!