Chiponomics 102


ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 13, 2006
5,773
Scottsdale, Arizona
Gentlemen,

If this forum will tolerate it, and if members find it to be of some educational or entertainment value, I intend to post up from time to time, some of my writings on economic issues. Long-term members of this forum already know that I am an armchair economist as that was my primary focus in graduate school and a passion of mine today. I believe most of what I write is embedded in the gut of most successful individuals although they may not have thought the issues through in a formal way. Chiponomics 101, posted about three weeks ago, I will consider the first installation. Today’s article, Chiponomics 102, concerns the rants of Team Shelby members who are upset about a Ford dealer advertising a new Shelby GT350 for sale at a substantial premium above MSRP. I appear to be swimming against the tide as those members almost universally feel that dealer pricing above MSRP should be illegal. The following quoted post is representative of most members feelings concerning ADM (additional dealer markup).

I will keep politics out of these posts and although I welcome any members response to what I write, either positive or negative, I ask that you leave politics out of this as well.

This makes me sick... it truly should be illegal.

Gentlemen,

I don't know why this type of thing upsets people??? This is still America and price-fixing is generally illegal (at least for now). We all love it when we pay a dealer substantially less than MSRP and in some cases less than dealers cost. We love it when the free market system works in our favor and we sell a 1966 GT350 that we bought for $30,000 15 years ago for $200,000 at Barrett Jackson today. We love it when the home we purchased 20 years ago for $55,000 brings $300,000 today.

The laws of economics are as certain as the law of gravity and as such, there are only two ways to allocate any limited commodity. And that is with a price, or with a line. When items are allocated with a price they are always available for sale and demand is matched to supply by that price. D flawless diamonds are both very rare and very desirable, but you can walk into a jewelry store and buy one without any wait today. 1965 Shelby GT350 Mustangs are very rare, but I can buy one within the next 30 days because they are always available...... at a price.

Perhaps we should fix the price of all 1965 GT350s at $50,000. Nobody would be able to sell one for more than that amount. Demand would immediately overwhelm the available supply and a waiting list stretching to the horizon would form. The few successful purchasers would pay less, but those savings would be overwhelmed by the wasted time and lost opportunities that would result by hoards of people standing in that line. Fixed prices for commodities and extremely long lines were the norm in the Soviet Union. Back in the 1970s during the gas crisis, gasoline prices were fixed by our government resulting in the same disastrous long lines.

Most of the cars advertised on eBay by private individuals have "buy it now prices" that are ridiculous. Most of the cars I see advertised in auto trader by private individuals also have idiotically high and unrealistic prices. Stupidity is not illegal either.

The dealer who ran this ad will not fetch $110,000 for his $75,000 GT350. His ad is a waste of time and bandwidth. I was able to secure a chassis from Tom Glockner at Santa Margarita Ford at a discount. Anybody else can do the same. If you buy a new GT350 and want to turn around and advertise it for $300,000, you are free to do so. If I am stupid enough to pay you $300,000, I am free to do so. But I wouldn't bank on that.

Our entire free market system is under assault. Capitalism has made this the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind. With all of its flaws and all of its warts, the cumulative buying and selling decisions of 300 plus million people results in an efficiency of pricing and distribution unmatched by any other system that's ever been deployed. Every time I hear an American say, "That should be illegal", I cringe. Because every new law making something illegal strips us all of a measure of the freedom that we previously enjoyed.

Guard that freedom, and cherish the liberty that rewards good decisions and punishes bad ones. In this manner, all Americans cumulatively decide who succeeds and who fails. When we lose faith in ourselves and wish to rely upon decisions imposed upon us by our political masters, those same overlords will pick and choose the winners and losers. And we all become subservient pawns to those rulers who were once public servants themselves.

God bless America.

Chip Beck
 
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Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Well said Chip

Thank you

Shadowman
 

KJD

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Dec 21, 2005
1,012
Location, Location
Couldn't agree more. And as usual, Chip, stated with great clarity and eloquence. :thumbsup
 

Neilda

GT Owner
Oct 19, 2005
3,559
London, UK
An interesting subject....

In most things, it is ultimately the market that decides the value or price of a given thing - other than basic utilities (heating gas, water etc) whose prices are often, rightly, controlled by the state. The twin curves of supply and demand meet, and the price is set.

In Europe there are retail rules preventing premiums over MSRP (I hesitate to say 'laws preventing', but it may well be law), furthermore, manufacturers quite tightly control the distribution routes of products to ensure that there's no deep discounting from MSRP.... This last part has caused legal problems - for example, if you are Levi Strauss Jeans, you may not want your trendy denim sold (and discounted) in Wall Mart, so Levi refuse to supply Wall Mart. The consequence of which is legal action by Wall Mart against Levi.

If I had invested millions in creating a brand, I would not want it sold in some grubby supermarket at a discount via a grey import. So I understand the principle.

Equally, I would not want open profiteering from the retail price point I had set.

The answer, it would seem, would be to allow the manufacturers to set MSRP with their dealers and the manufacturers to be able to control that price with penalties - i.e. if you sell at a premium, we will no longer supply you.
 

RALPHIE

GT Owner
Mar 1, 2007
7,278
...Every time I hear an American say, "That should be illegal", I cringe. Because every new law making something illegal strips us all of a measure of the freedom that we previously enjoyed.

Unfortunately, the function of any legislature is to legislate, and every time they do, it costs each of us either additional dollars or additional freedoms (or both) in the name of "improving the system." In fact, many of these "improvements" only serve to make each of us more subservient.
 

on d bit

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2008
297
maricopa az
Is the gt350 limited in any way? Why purchase the gt350 from the dealer if one can purchase a normal mustang gt(msrp) and then pay Shelby(msrp) for the gt350 conversion?
 

Fast Freddy

GPS'D 225 MPH
Mark II Lifetime
Aug 5, 2005
2,685
Avondale, Arizona
supply and demand rules......

i like oil and gold.
 

Nardo GT

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2006
2,300
Texas
supply and demand rules......

i like oil and gold.

Exactly. Not that anyone cares, but my degree is in finance/economics. I have not used my degree and should sell it on ebay. I too am fascinated by economics.
Being in the car business, I am constantly asked what a car is "worth". They really don't want a ten minute reply but that is about what it takes. Worth is a subjective term. If it was your deceased father's car then it is "worth" more to you than anyone else. If it is "one of one" then it is worth more as well.
Basically something is "worth" what someone else is willing to pay. True, one could pay more than it is "worth" on the average, but still, apparently, it was "worth" that amount to the buyer.

Chip is dead on about people not complaining when something they own goes up in value. But boy oh boy do we hear about bailouts and crys for help when they drop. Keeping this unpolitical, but when someone borrows money on an item and it goes up, then life is good and you certainly don't hear them wanting to donate their profit to the bank that made them the loan as a good gesture. But when it drops, then the crys for help and I can't pay come. I say "what happened to the words obligation and responsibility". You took on that "obligation" and you are "responsible"...win or lose....not me, not the bank and not the gov't bailout. Just you.

Off my soapbox now and if you want to know what you car is "worth" let's discuss it over lunch.
 
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AtomicGT

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Apr 12, 2006
3,032
Los Angeles
Let the market set the price. I wanted an '08 GT500KR, dealer wanted 50K over. I didn't buy it, bought my 2010 GT500 at $1000.00 below sticker last November when the market was struggling. Supply and demand is what we live in and personallly what I prefer. If the price is too high, look elsehwere or wait. Don't demand a price fix, then quality and availablility go in the bucket!

BTW, I have a 1966 GT350, that I paid $58K for in 2002. Currently it is not for sale! But if anyone wants to make and offer........?
 
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gtjoey

Keep Smiling - GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Oct 14, 2005
3,454
Chip you speak the tongue of REAGANOMICS!! GTJOEY1314:thumbsup
 

KJRGT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
May 4, 2006
2,840
SoCal
Another bullseye shot from our esteemed Moderator. :thumbsup

And let's not forget that the USA, in a short period of time as the world's civilization timeline goes, is not only the weathiest country on the planet, but also maintains the highest overall standard of living BY FAR for those who live here. I scratch my head when political groups fail to see the correlation.
 

Kayvan

GT Owner
Jul 13, 2006
4,782
Crime negates all laws of economics.

All products and markets are effected.
 

THamonGT

GT
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
As a retired Ford Dealer I couldn't agree more o wise one CHIP. If you don't like the price wait and shop around. Tomy Hamon PS God Bless the USA and Daniel who would agree.
 

Cobrar

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jun 24, 2006
4,018
Metro Detroit
Crime negates all laws of economics.

All products and markets are effected.

and (financial) derivatives ............. :thumbsdow
 

centerpunch

ex-GT owner x2
Mark II Lifetime
Sep 16, 2005
952
OH/NC
Right on, bro!

From my old FordGTprices.com website:

(archived here: http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1851)

The myth of "dealer gouging"

(a.k.a. Supply and demand: how the world works)

Econ 101 tells us that for any non-essential item sold in a free market, the market value is determined by the intersection between the price that a willing buyer will pay, and the price at which a willing seller will sell. (Ford GT's are considered nonessential items, unless you are Jay Leno.) As such, DEALERS DO NOT DETERMINE SELLING PRICES. They can ask whatever price they want, but unless there is a willing buyer, the car will not sell.

It is not "Dealer Gouging" that makes Ford GT prices higher than MSRP, it is the willing "gotta-have-it-now" buyers. Some cars sell for more than sticker price, and some sell for less, but in each case, it is the guy with the money that decides what the car is worth. (If dealers could determine selling prices, we'd all be paying $50,000 for Honda Civics). Let's reverse the roles to examine the myth of dealer gouging.

  • Let's say you have a used Mustang that all the value guides say is worth $20,000, but you believe the car is worth more. Are you gouging when you ask $25,000? Are you gouging when you refuse to sell it for $20,000?
  • When you buy a new car for under the sticker price, are you gouging the dealer?
  • When you sell your house, which has been professionally appraised for $200,000, and you receive two offers, one for $200,000 and one for $220,000, are you gouging when you accept the higher offer?
Many dealers mistakenly believe their Ford GT is still worth $100,000 over sticker, it is their right to refuse lower offers, and they are not gouging anyone by doing just that.
 

Nardo GT

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2006
2,300
Texas
Right on, bro!
[*]When you buy a new car for under the sticker price, are you gouging the dealer?

[*]When you sell your house, which has been professionally appraised for $200,000, and you receive two offers, one for $200,000 and one for $220,000, are you gouging when you accept the higher offer?
[/LIST]



ASSACTLY!!!!!
 

ford gt 1625

GT Owner
Sep 1, 2009
47
Atlanta GA
Yeah
 
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FB GT40

GT Owner/B.o.D
Mark IV Lifetime
May 30, 2006
812
Folly Beach, SC
Let the buyer decide...

Let the buyer decide.

I placed an order for a Ford GT in 2004. My dealer never even knew they were in the works. MSRP was announced at around $141,000. Escalated a bit before the official launch.

After delivery, I came in to pay for mine and was asked for $220,000. Miffed, I declined. Waited 9 months and bought a Herritage Edition at MSRP from Murray’s Ford in Dubois, PA.

My dealer lost me for life. I’ve since bought 5 Fords (including a KR-500) and he’s not seen a penny of it. Never will.

I sell disaster supplies for a living. We have not raised prices on any products – even in light of the needs in Haiti.

I conduct my business by the Rotary 4-Way Test and have for 20 years. I feel good about that!
 

skyrex

FORD GT OWNER
Mark II Lifetime
Apr 11, 2008
2,115
Lake Las Vegas, Henderson, NV
Interesting thread. Fortunately research information about products and pricing is more accesible now than it was in the past. But items do have a tangible bottom line worth in any particular industry. Using cars as an example, there is a bottom line price that a dealer will pay for a customers trade in. They have an expectation, and rightfully so, that they need to make a certain profit on re-selling the car and I am sure that price does not vary much from dealer to dealer.

There are a variety of factors that may play into an items price and a person's willingness to pay. I was with a friend when he was looking at a particular new exotic car at a dealer he had frequented many times in the past. The salesman told him to wait six months on the car and he would save himself $30-40K. He looked at the man and said, "I have more money than time and I don't like to wait. I will take the car."

Which explains why I buy most of my cars used......oh yeah.....the proper term to make the buyer feel better is pre-owned. :lol :willy
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
The salesman told him to wait six months on the car and he would save himself $30-40K. He looked at the man and said, "I have more money than time and I don't like to wait. I will take the car."

Interesting statement. I have often said "Money can be replaced, time can't."

However, I would have waited the 6 months. I waited almost a year to find a new FGT at the price point I was willing to pay.