boost graph on dyno problems....


gbvetracer

GT Owner
Jan 25, 2007
89
Does ANYONE out there know what might cause a boost line to be wavy and have dips in it? As opposed to be smooth and linear as normal? The car since brand new and totally stock has this problem as well as being down on boost by 2 to 3 lbs. We've tried another blower with the exact same results. We've also tried new gaskets everywhere including the intercooler and intake. At this point, were totally at a LOSS at to whats wrong??????? ANY ideas?
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
I am sorry that you still have not found a sweet spot yet with your gal; at least I hope that this is who I think that it is.

If so then we have chatted and sadly I think that there is a possibility that you are chasing something that does not exist.

Now if this is not who I think that it is then disregard my opening comments and hopefully the following will afford another perspective as you travel through the process.

Boost is a single measurement used to monitor the performance level of your gal as would be oil pressure however there is a significant different.

The measured boost on one gal (which is only one of several items to consider) versus another can be different for several reasons even though the supercharger is spinning at the same rate. The most notorious would be elevation aka the air density and furthermore te measurement of boost is more a matter of measuring resistance at any given moment when compared to anything. Having shared this; incremental changes in the cam positioning, the ability of the heads to flow and the list goes on are just a couple of the mechanical variables that can and do affect measured boost and at the end of the day the difference does not mean that there is a problem; simply a difference.

You could be one of the fortunate and have a gal that is truly able to flow better than the projected production line norm. For example when we place a supercharger/blower on a gal and take a boost measurement and then change the cams to an alternate profile even though the supercharger is spinning at and thus moving theoretically the same volume of air the boost as measure maybe higher or lower and we do this because boost alone does NOT = power in fact same times one can find more measured power with less measure boost..

Now I do not want to discourage your quest for the “Holy Grail” as I have been on this quest for far too many years to remember and yet I do not want you to search for an answer that you may already have but not be prepared to accept.

I have seen your dyno charts and your gal is strong. Is she different from another; absolutely and yet who is to say that yours should not be the baseline from which others compare.?

I truly hope that I have not offended you as this is not my desire but rather to offer another view point so as you and your gal can move away from the tuner facility and out on the tarmac and play.

All the best

Regards

Shadowman
 

gbvetracer

GT Owner
Jan 25, 2007
89
shadowman,,

Yes its me. Thanks for your previous help and comments now. I think you are either missing something here, or im missing something. From all my research, a boost curve on a car is NOT like horsepower. Whether the boost is on an 03 Cobra or a FGT, or a Lightning.... the boost line should be a smooth, linear line. If the boost line has dips and waves in it, something is wrong.... usually belt slippage. But in our case, the car showed this type of line even when totally stock. So, regardless of the total boost the car makes, how do you explain the fact that the line has these dips and waves in it when the other "normal" boost lines are smooth? thanks!
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Yes its me. Thanks for your previous help and comments now. I think you are either missing something here, or im missing something. From all my research, a boost curve on a car is NOT like horsepower. Whether the boost is on an 03 Cobra or a FGT, or a Lightning.... the boost line should be a smooth, linear line. If the boost line has dips and waves in it, something is wrong.... usually belt slippage. But in our case, the car showed this type of line even when totally stock. So, regardless of the total boost the car makes, how do you explain the fact that the line has these dips and waves in it when the other "normal" boost lines are smooth? thanks!

Great; I am glad it is who I thought it was.

It has been many weeks since we chatted as such I hope that you are doing well.

When I saw the thread I saw low on boost and did not associate the less than smooth curve that you had been dealing with earlier.

You are correct that even though the amount of boost can and will vary from gal to gal even if there power plant is the same the boost once it begins to build should remain fairly smooth; now I say fairly with turbos having the significant hedge here over roots style superchargers..

The roots style supercharger is archaic by design even though over the year many twist and tweaks have been done to make them more efficient

The roots style supercharger is notorious for ever increasing discharge temperature as the boost builds, air flow cavitations within the housing and then add to this in order for these units to be more user friendly for day to day driving the OEM incorporate a by-pass circuit to allow complete and rapid discharge of the pressures under deceleration and shifting when compared to a similar unit used strictly for racing on which there is no by pass circuit but rather a pop off valve aka bust plate to allow a quick exit of uncontrolled pressures with in only if needed.

I do recall looking at your dyno sheets and even chatting with the technician working with you several times and there was a wave pattern that at first glance appeared to be a by-pass valve cycling however I remember well that this item was swapped, that the OEM pulley was reinstalled and then during every test (as I recall) the results were very similar. Then Bony’s OEM supercharger was installed as yet another comparison and once again the results were the same. Now add to this I have come to understand that you have replaced all of the gaskets including the primary intake gaskets and the measured results are still the same.

So what is the cause; and once defined is the cause a problem. Now this is the million dollar question because coming back to the measured results; your gal on the dyno is very strong.

1. It could be simply the by product of the design of the supercharger and or the by-pass system as I have mentioned on several occasions that at max RPM these superchargers are operating beyond the OEM design limits
2. Could you be getting valve seepage; doubtful as the boost never spikes up beyond the max but rather drops slightly and then back up again. Furthermore your vacuum is stable and normal.
3. Could it have to do with the state of tune; doubtful as the results remained consistent whether she is in OEM trim or with the smaller pulley and the associated tune
4. Would it be a leak down issue at one or more of the cylinders; doubtful and yet you have gone this far why not do so
5. Could it be the intake tube collapsing and then expanding as it momentarily gasp for air; certainly the measured event could make sense of this happening however as I recall you have a stiffener installed on the intake tube
6. Could it be the PCV system sticking and releasing; I do not feel that enough primary air is received from this area to be create such an issue
7. Could it be a head gasket; no

Well knowing what it takes to make a gals heart come to life and sustain a heart beat I can see nothing contributing to this slight cycling of boost other than design characteristics which at the end of the day produce some rather nice results.

Now for what it is worth; I have been down roads where in my heart something simply does not feel right and I have tossed and turned until it drives me crazy only to find that at the end of the day I can not find satisfaction. I have also on occasion had to pass the gal on to another owner that once received enjoys her and then I either move on or purchase another somehow believing that the problem is behind me when in fact it remains as it was.

No I do not think that you have been on a wild goose chase because this process has remained important to you; add to this I respect the fact that through it all you have remained committed to finding the culprit and creating the desired outcome. I just hope that you find it; meaning the desired outcome even if it is simply validation that it is the norm otherwise I suspect that frustration is soon to follow.

A most sincere good luck

Shadowman
 

nota4re

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 15, 2006
4,199
Does ANYONE out there know what might cause a boost line to be wavy and have dips in it? As opposed to be smooth and linear as normal?

I too think you are chasing a problem that doesn't exist. I say this (and more) without the least intention of being offensive to you. Rather, I try to represent a different perspective - hopefully helping you to broaden the scope of what is REALLY wrong. In short, I let Shadowman be the mature, knowledgeable coach and I'll fire from the hip....

In this and your previous threads you have NEVER described any driveability problems or anomolies. Also, despite a claim of being down on boost, you've never provided a car-car dyno comparison of your car versus another car.

So, my friend, I think you are chasing a ghost. If your instrumented tests are showing a wavey boost line, have you ever thought that the instruments to measure might be bad or flawed. In fact, have you ever connected these same instruments to a "normal" car (GT)? I bet not, and further, I bet that if you did, you'd have two "bad" cars. Gimme a break.

Please remember that my perspective is solely based on the contents of your posts. If you ask me to diagnose based on this description alone, I'd say the shop that you are dealing with has their heads buried fully up their asses. You are probably an understandably nervous/concerned owner about a very expensive asset that you own and want it to be right. "They", on the other hand, I hold at a different level and I say the lack of any sound methods for testing/making conclusions spells incompetency. The fact that you go through all of the trouble to swap blowers off of another car to chase a non-existant problem.... gimme a break. Also, in a previous post you quoted them as saying something like boost pressure trail-off at higher RPM is an anomoly pointing to something wrong. I say it is not as uncommon as they claim it is. You have two very large air pumps connected together (supercharger and engine) and it is not THAT uncommon to ee a small 1-2lb trail-off of boost because the mecahnical abilities and shape of the capacity curves is NOT IDENTICAL. Pick up the phone and have a chat with John over at Accufab. He's a friggen' legend when dealing with these motors and he can probably do a lot to set your mind at ease - if he has the time.

Dyno your car somewhere, anywhere, back to back with another GT. "Instrument" another GT and see if you see the same anomolies - you likely will. For example, just how are you measuring boost on the GT. On a stock GT, there is absolutely NO boost/vac port available to connect any instrument. So, unless you have mechanically altered the GT, you are getting boost from one of the GT's on-board sensors that convey boost in voltage. If so, what are you using to convert this voltage into boost, yadda, yadda, yadda.

At the very least, you have to admit that the methodolgy you (i.e., the shop that has your car) have used to make any conclusions has been greatly flawed.
 

427Aggie

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Aug 18, 2005
885
Frisco, Tx
I'm going to ask a stupid question but have you put another GT on this dyno and seen if it does this? Have you tried another Dyno??? Could it be the equipment and not the car?

matt
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
...On a stock GT, there is absolutely NO boost/vac port available to connect any instrument. So, unless you have mechanically altered the GT, you are getting boost from one of the GT's on-board sensors that convey boost in voltage...

I checked out my car on where one would attach a boost gauge and found two places that would work without much trouble.

1. Look at the fuel pressure regulator, it has a vacuum/boost line attacted to it to reference the fuel pressure to the intake pressure. You could devise a T to connect at this point.

2. Follow the vacuum/boost line back towards the intake manifold. You will notice it attaches to a fitting on the intake manifold that appears to have another port in it that is plugged off. Remove the plug and tap into this port.

The only other access point for measure boost is where the TMAP sensor is mounted, but that is much more trouble than using on of the above solutions.

I agree with the Shadowman that you probably don't have a problem.
 

nota4re

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 15, 2006
4,199
BlackICE,

I just installed the KB snout pulley. KB goes the extra mile to give you a boost tap sandwhich plate with a nipple to attach a gauge or other device. I am not sure of the rationale of why KB would go through this trouble if boost/vac was readily available. Maybe they got a wavey boost line at the other places?
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
BlackICE,

I just installed the KB snout pulley. KB goes the extra mile to give you a boost tap sandwhich plate with a nipple to attach a gauge or other device. I am not sure of the rationale of why KB would go through this trouble if boost/vac was readily available. Maybe they got a wavey boost line at the other places?

Good, point I don't think KB would do it if it wasn't needed. I never tried those ports, but it might be worth a try. Does the sandwich part go between the TMAP and the intake manifold?
 

gbvetracer

GT Owner
Jan 25, 2007
89
boost graphs...

Guys, Im having problems getting the graphs to show you uploaded on here. BUT, I dont think you understand what im saying. The shop thats coming up with the boost graph on my car does this stuff ALL DAY LONG. The engine in the FGT is not ANYTHING unusual or different when comparing boost in a Cobra or Lightning. Boost is boost. The cars boost is at least 2 lbs lower then it should be, thus down on horsepower by about 50rwhp. BUT, what I keep saying is NOT just about the boost, but the fact that on ALL these other cars (which ARE tested on this SAME equipment) the boost is a smooth, linear line and NOT a jagged line with dips and waves in it. I dont know why or how you can think we're chasing a ghost or somehow dreaming up a problem that doesnt really exist. This is soooooooooooooo frustrating. What if I get another FGT into this SAME shop and have it dyno'd, only to find a smooth and normal boost curve? Then can we ALL agree that something is wrong with my car? I appreciate all the comments, and time you guys have taken to respond, but I just feel like something is missing in my explaination since you all think NOTHING is wrong with the car.....
 

freeflyer

GT Owner/ Forum Sponsor
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 12, 2007
180
Montana
gbvetracer, can you show us logs of the following? TPS, MAF, and short and long term injector pulse. I would be great if you log these along with boost and load. It might just be possible that you have a bad TPS sensor. If you see the TPS voltage fluctuating at any point in the log and you have the gas peddle at 100% this could account for the jagged boost curve. Just a thought.
Michael
 

427Aggie

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Aug 18, 2005
885
Frisco, Tx
I don't think anyone is trying to say you aren't right. The dyno I have used has had problems before...actually it was due to a wire that was going bad and started getting noise in it....so Friday everything dyno'ed fine and Saturday it couldn't tell me crap about what it was doing and the HP numbers were way wacked.

I think everyone is giving you suggestions. The easiest is getting another GT on there or running it on a second dyno to see if it does the same thing.

Listen to Freeflyer though..with the research he did to make the boost guage he knows what hes talking about.

matt
 

gbvetracer

GT Owner
Jan 25, 2007
89
Freeflyer

thanks... i will get that info. Question, if this tps sensor is bad, would that also account for the car not making enough boost? My car has always been down at least 2 pounds of boost since brand new. With pulley changes, its still down the same 2 pounds. (at least) Thanks...
 

freeflyer

GT Owner/ Forum Sponsor
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 12, 2007
180
Montana
It could, if the throttle is not opening all the way or fluctuating the bypass valve could be cycling with the throttle. That is why I'd like to see the logs. If at full throttle you getting small fluctuations from boost to vacuum then this could be why your boost graph is jagged.

Where and how are you measuring boost/vacuum?

Another simple thing to check is belt slippage. Mark your supercharger pulley and belt with a marker and make a pull on the dyno to see if the lmark you made on the belt is still in line with the mark on the supercharger pulley.
 

freeflyer

GT Owner/ Forum Sponsor
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 12, 2007
180
Montana
gbvetracer, were you able to get the logs?
 

gbvetracer

GT Owner
Jan 25, 2007
89
new fix possible....

A ford racing tech told us to check the Rocker Followers.... he said it sounded VERY possible one or more came off... so im gunna pull the vavle covers and check them... Ever hear of this??
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
A ford racing tech told us to check the Rocker Followers.... he said it sounded VERY possible one or more came off... so im gunna pull the vavle covers and check them... Ever hear of this??

Not from this end and at yet I remain all ears

It sounds odd but time will tell.

FYI; the driver side valve cover comes off easy and then the passenger side is a bit awkward. I suggest disconnecting the fuel line from the rail as it will make it much easier; I learned the hard way

Have a new set of gaskets ready for the reinstallation and the sealer for the cam cover seams on the head. Otherwise it is very straight forward.

All the best

Shadowman
 

gbvetracer

GT Owner
Jan 25, 2007
89
rocker followers.....

Bill, thanks for the advice on the valve covers. Just so ya know, this guy at Ford Racing is REALLY helpfull and knowledgable. I have his email address if you ever need it. Basically if he doesnt know the answer to a problem, he has access to several VERY experienced mechanics and engineers that know thr FGT. He said they have a dyno and have raced and worked on several GT's, so they are a great source for help. (just my opinion) After i explained our problems in detail, he asked around and later said SEVERAL guys there thought our problem sounded exactly like what they had ran into before when the rocker followers ended up being off. They said it was pretty common in the 03-04 Cobras too... Did i tell you my cars "load" data from the dyno was also not right? Jeff said it had similar dips as did the boost.