Surging issue, dumping boost around 12 psi

[italianjoe]

Multimatic is digging into it as we speak and might have found a cause. I’ll wait to post until it is confirmed.

Good news Kevin, I might put in a call to multimatic tomorrow. Just to say hello of course.

 

[italianjoe]

The car was picked up yesterday and delivered to the GT tech in Chattanooga. I'll keep this thread posted on any findings.

Note that the owner of the dealer is selling his GT as well, and they say they will likely not continue to service GTs.

It's sad but a few dealership only got into the NFGT Program to help secure an allocation for a NFGT.

 

[BtwoG]

Soon, we'll all have to ship our cars to ItalianJoe for any work

 

[italianjoe]

Soon, we'll all have to ship our cars to ItalianJoe for any work

I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime soon and will be here to help out as much as I can. Unless the good lord calls me to serve for him.

 

[GT Power]

Ok so lets talk about this, if we are talking about the Engine then both the NFGT and Raptor engine should share the same part numbers correct? when in reality when you look up a bare block, head's, crankshaft, piston rods, ect. the NFGT has its own part number, so if they share the same engine parts then why are the part numbers different? we already know from a previous thread i posted spec's on the NFGT and Raptor engine and we know that the NFGT has lower compression ratio. so they would have changed the crank, rods, and pistons to do that. 2nd we know that the Raptor is a wet sump oil system and the NFGT is a dry sump oil system one has internal oil pump and the other is external and modification to the block had to be made to accomplish this, so is it the same block? same thing with the heads, the NFGT part number is different then a Raptor engine why? i can't confirm it at this time but the NFGT looks to have bigger Valves, so does this make a shared part from a Raptor? So when someone says they share the same parts as another Ecoboost Engine then i guess its how you look at it. If by same you mean taking a current ecoboot engine and modifying it then ok, but for me when I hear "share" my first thought is they are the same as its cousin. So my point to all of this is I don't want owners to think they can go and get a set of heads and a block off a Raptor and it will bolt on to there NFGT and perform the same way. As for the sensor's and actuator's then yes they do. some have a ford part number and others will have a NFGT part number. I have read all the articles written on the NFGT, And I know lot of people who were involved in the project and i'm sure they were not misleading any thing about this car and were trying to promote the ecoboost technology.

The reason the GT has unique part numbers for the heads is because the valve springs are swapped out with GT-specific parts. The heads also receive a drill operation to one of the coolant ports to optimize flow.

The cylinder blocks start out as factory Raptor machined castings but receive a couple of additional machining operations prior to assembly in order to accommodate the GT’s unique motor mounts. The Mark II engines also get a “Track Use Only “ plate peaned into the VIN pad location.

Other unique parts, off the top of my head…crank, rods, bearings, pistons, head gaskets, damper, water pump, exhaust manifolds, turbos & lines, oil pump & filter, intake, cams, oil pan, throttle body (GT350 model) and miscellaneous lines/wiring harness.

Back in 2016 I was tasked with launching the GT engine line…one of the highlights of my career.

Hope that helps clarify things.

 

[italianjoe]

The reason the GT has unique part numbers for the heads is because the valve springs are swapped out with GT-specific parts. The heads also receive a drill operation to one of the coolant ports to optimize flow.

The cylinder blocks start out as factory Raptor machined castings but receive a couple of additional machining operations prior to assembly in order to accommodate the GT’s unique motor mounts. The Mark II engines also get a “Track Use Only “ plate peaned into the VIN pad location.

Other unique parts, off the top of my head…crank, rods, bearings, pistons, head gaskets, damper, water pump, exhaust manifolds, turbos & lines, oil pump & filter, intake, throttle body (GT350 model) and miscellaneous lines/wiring harness.

Back in 2016 I was tasked with launching the GT engine line…one of the highlights of my career.

Hope that helps clarify things.

Thank you for the explanation been waiting to get an answer on that. Great job on the engine work ......its has impressed me and I'm a big time Ferrari guy. can I ask you a few questions ?

 

[GT Power]

Thank you for the explanation been waiting to get an answer on that. Great job on the engine work ......its has impressed me and I'm a big time Ferrari guy. can I ask you a few questions ?

Thank you. I have really enjoyed watching some of the videos you guys have posted on the internet, especially the guy running his Mark II at Thermal Springs. We would play that video at the shop a lot. The engine was a true success; a testament to the entire team of designers, engineers and builders.

I may not be able to answer all your questions but I will try my best.

 

[GTMD]

I would assume cams are different too?

 

[GT Power]

I would assume cams are different too?

Yes, sorry I forgot cams and the unique dry sump oil pan. Edited my previous post.

 

[italianjoe]

Thank you. I have really enjoyed watching some of the videos you guys have posted on the internet, especially the guy running his Mark II at Thermal Springs. We would play that video at the shop a lot. The engine was a true success; a testament to the entire team of designers, engineers and builders.

I may not be able to answer all your questions but I will try my best.

Ok so I will only ask one question and its the one I'm asked the most and never have never recieved an answer from ford or multimatic. What is in the castrol Ford Gt oil that makes it so expensive?

 

[Special K]

Good news Kevin, I might put in a call to multimatic tomorrow. Just to say hello of course.

I’d recommend it...

 

[GT Power]

Ok so I will only ask one question and its the one I'm asked the most and never have never recieved an answer from ford or multimatic. What is in the castrol Ford Gt oil that makes it so expensive?

Disclaimer: I haven’t reviewed a technical data sheet on it, however it would be easy enough to have one of the oil analysis companies do a comparison of it against some other popular (and much cheaper) brands. I wouldn’t expect to find something surprising in the analysis.

The manufacturer is always going to recommend their product; it’s all they’ve tested with and it’s all they have data on. My personal opinion is that it’s mainly marketing and the GT logo on it that makes it so expensive. Having said that, if I was fortunate enough to own one of these cars, I would stick with the manufacturer-recommended product, at least for the duration of their warranty obligation period, just in case I had an engine-related issue and needed warranty coverage. Ford would certainly push back on you if you couldn’t provide receipts, or provided receipts showing the incorrect oil was used.

Outside of the warranty period, I would do some research on the other companies’ products, and armed with data, decide if switching brands makes sense and is something I’m personally comfortable with. You may find there’s actually something that protects even better.

Related: Always use the GT-spec filter and not the standard FL-500 variant. It was designed to deal with the elevated oil pressures the GT runs so it has a can made of thicker steel.

 

[nota4re]

Related: Always use the GT-spec filter and not the standard FL-500 variant. It was designed to deal with the elevated oil pressures the GT runs so it has a can made of thicker steel.

While the GT is dry-sumped, I don't think it is true that the oil pressures are any higher than other 3.5L variants??

Also.... if any of you NFGT owners cared to pursue.... *IF* Ford is the ONLY source for a specific part (like an oil filter) AND periodic replacement of that part is required to maintain warranty then, by federal law, Ford has to make that part available to you free of charge. (This is part of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act enacted in 1975.)

 

[italianjoe]

Disclaimer: I haven’t reviewed a technical data sheet on it, however it would be easy enough to have one of the oil analysis companies do a comparison of it against some other popular (and much cheaper) brands. I wouldn’t expect to find something surprising in the analysis.

The manufacturer is always going to recommend their product; it’s all they’ve tested with and it’s all they have data on. My personal opinion is that it’s mainly marketing and the GT logo on it that makes it so expensive. Having said that, if I was fortunate enough to own one of these cars, I would stick with the manufacturer-recommended product, at least for the duration of their warranty obligation period, just in case I had an engine-related issue and needed warranty coverage. Ford would certainly push back on you if you couldn’t provide receipts, or provided receipts showing the incorrect oil was used.

Outside of the warranty period, I would do some research on the other companies’ products, and armed with data, decide if switching brands makes sense and is something I’m personally comfortable with. You may find there’s actually something that protects even better.

Related: Always use the GT-spec filter and not the standard FL-500 variant. It was designed to deal with the elevated oil pressures the GT runs so it has a can made of thicker steel.

Thank you again Sir. I did get that same response from Ford as well but it is becoming difficult as a servicing dealer to continue to sell this oil outside of the factory warranty. As for the oil filter I would NEVER install an FL-500 I could immediately tell the difference and from day one notified Ford of the Error on the motocraft oil filter chart.

 

[GT Power]

While the GT is dry-sumped, I don't think it is true that the oil pressures are any higher than other 3.5L variants??

Also.... if any of you NFGT owners cared to pursue.... *IF* Ford is the ONLY source for a specific part (like an oil filter) AND periodic replacement of that part is required to maintain warranty then, by federal law, Ford has to make that part available to you free of charge. (This is part of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act enacted in 1975.)

The elevated pressures are what drove the need for a unique filter. The FL-500, which is used on many Ford vehicles, will balloon out under the right conditions.

I have yet to hear of anyone who has been able to argue the Magnuson Moss Act successfully against an OE, and lawyers are more expensive than Ford GT motor oil; I would personally just use the factory-recommended product until your warranty is up and avoid the potential hassle. When Ford no longer has an obligation to cover your engine then by all means do your research and use another brand of 5W50 full synthetic oil that has as good (or better) properties, if you are comfortable with it.

 

[nota4re]

The elevated pressures are what drove the need for a unique filter. The FL-500, which is used on many Ford vehicles, will balloon out under the right conditions.

From an engineering perspective, I'm having a really tough time to digest either of these assertions. First off, there is no evidence that the NFGT runs at elevated oil pressures as compared to other, similar 3.5L ecoboost engines - or any other modern engine for that matter. To wit, acceptable oil pressure ranges cited in the NFGT Service Manual - in the diagnostic and other sections are nominal.

Even more implausible is the assertion that a spin-on oil filter will "balloon out". There are ISO and JIS standards for testing oil filters. Burst testing is a component of these tests as is rapid 0 to 100psi cycle tests repeated thousands of times. Maximum pressure is also tested and garden variety spin-on oil filters - like even the least expensive Fram filters will typically not fail below 300 psi. When failure does occur - it occurs with the rubber seal at the base of the oil filter. This seal will give way well before a "ballooning" of the metal cannister itself. If the metal cannister itself starts to fail, there are far more serious issues going on upstream. While there could be reasons why Ford elected to specify a new filter, but cannister ballooning and elevated oil pressure (as compared to peers) seems highly unlikely.

The topic is interesting enough (for me) to dive in a little more. I'll provide a more detailed comparison of the GT-spec filter, the FL500, and the WIX 57045 and the WIX 57502 filters soon.

 

[GT Power]

From an engineering perspective, I'm having a really tough time to digest either of these assertions. First off, there is no evidence that the NFGT runs at elevated oil pressures as compared to other, similar 3.5L ecoboost engines - or any other modern engine for that matter. To wit, acceptable oil pressure ranges cited in the NFGT Service Manual - in the diagnostic and other sections are nominal.

Even more implausible is the assertion that a spin-on oil filter will "balloon out". There are ISO and JIS standards for testing oil filters. Burst testing is a component of these tests as is rapid 0 to 100psi cycle tests repeated thousands of times. Maximum pressure is also tested and garden variety spin-on oil filters - like even the least expensive Fram filters will typically not fail below 300 psi. When failure does occur - it occurs with the rubber seal at the base of the oil filter. This seal will give way well before a "ballooning" of the metal cannister itself. If the metal cannister itself starts to fail, there are far more serious issues going on upstream. While there could be reasons why Ford elected to specify a new filter, but cannister ballooning and elevated oil pressure (as compared to peers) seems highly unlikely.

The topic is interesting enough (for me) to dive in a little more. I'll provide a more detailed comparison of the GT-spec filter, the FL500, and the WIX 57045 and the WIX 57502 filters soon.

You haven’t thought about the fact that the GT has a completely different oiling system. Im not going to go into any more detail than I’ve provided.

If the FL500 filter worked it would have come on the car. If you’d like to try one on your car let us know how you make out.

 

[Specracer]

Well I can tell you that I had the correct oil filter crack, and the car almost bled out completely. Was back in 2019. I was REALLY lucky that it happened on the street of our shop. Made one hell of a mess inside the shop, once safely parked and shut down. Ill still use the correct Motorcraft filter. Next change will be switching from Castrol to Motocraft.

GT power, thanks for joining us, and your insight that you have provided, so far! I hope some members don't dissuade you from sharing more.








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[nota4re]

If the FL500 filter worked it would have come on the car.

We absolutely agree on this point. I would seriously doubt that Ford spec'd a different filter just for the hell of it. And I think you are also right that the GT has a completely different oiling system (namely that it is dry-sumped) - which makes it fundamentally different than any application that the FL500S is spec'd for.

So, why another filter?

I'll bet money that the difference is that the spec'd filter has better/more robust/more reliable anti-drain back valve. There is a greater importance in the reliability of an anti drain back valve in a dry sumped motor than in conventional lubrication system. It may be the case that in some percentage of situations and vehicle orientations the FL500S *may* work fine - but that's likely not good enough. Hence, a GT-specific filter is required.

The notion that the NFGT employs unusually high oil pressures (it doesn't) or that a metal case of a filter "balloons out" when they are routinely tested at pressures 2-3 times what a car is capable to generate.... well that is just ludicrous.

But as I said previously, I'm going to dissect the NFGT spec filter, an FL500S, and two different WIX filters that cross reference to the FL500s - and let's see what the difference really are.

 

[dbk]

Kendall, honestly.

The elevated pressures are what drove the need for a unique filter. The FL-500, which is used on many Ford vehicles, will balloon out under the right conditions.

From an engineering perspective, I'm having a really tough time to digest either of these assertions. First off, there is no evidence that the NFGT runs at elevated oil pressures as compared to other, similar 3.5L ecoboost engines - or any other modern engine for that matter.

Back in 2016 I was tasked with launching the GT engine line…one of the highlights of my career.

Hope that helps clarify things.

I'm not an engineer, and my brainpower is limited for this topic at this time, or honestly most other times. But why are you gonna argue about this with a guy who just said "I was tasked with launching the Ford GT engine line" about this topic?" I can only assume he's not making it up for fun. I mean on the basis of experience, that sounds like he has a LOT of experience with the engine.