Finally the "Pulley Swap" question answered for me

[Shadowman]

After to many conversations to remember with various board members including Rich from the GT Team, and then finally Jack at Muscle Motors I decided that a pulley swap is in order for my gal too; the only twist is that I decided to have it pre-installed on the new 3.3 Whipple Super Charger.

Initially I openly shared that I likely would not install a smaller pulley however based on my experience with many a supercharged gal (cost no object mind you) I remain convinced that the larger super charger will allow for lower discharge temperatures that will in itself afford a much stronger and longer power curve not to mention the numerous design benefits of the Whipple as well.

There is no doubt that all FI gal’s respond best when the air is crisp however the performance will fall off significantly during the heat of a summer day. This was one of the reasons that (for me) the idea of a smaller pulley was not a draw card because I know that within the design of the OEM 2.3 supercharger the results would be measurable increase in discharge temperature. Now let me be clear; I remain convinced that the smaller pulleys that are being installed are likely the single greatest performance “BANG” for the buck this is why I qualified my comments with the statement; “cost no object”. To a gal I am certain that an increased power curve and resulting HP number is successfully experienced by “ALL” that have the smaller pulley installed. Now add to this there in “NO” doubt in my mind that the heart and supporting drive-train components of these gals can comfortably be pushed into the 7-800 horsepower range with little or no concern.

So; to summarize; I feel that the ideal situation would be cooler air at the inlet (the radiant heat developed as the result of the OEM muffler is phenomenal) which was addressed on my gal by replacing it with the AccuFab exhaust that I completely wrapped with the Thermo-Tech product. It is as the result of this that the IAT (intake air temperature) remains much lower and therefore the IAT sensor itself that communicates with the PCM will likely not respond by pulling timing/power. Now add to this being able to reduce the super charger’s discharge temperature will afford the gal’s heart to produce a measurable increase in power (even at the same boost levels) however as the result of the 3.3 Whipple super charger’s design an increase in boost can also be achieved while still reducing the discharge temperatures.

I expect that with the combination of these pieces the operation of the gal will remain well within the design constraints of the OEM heart and she will be very happy and endure a long relatively painless life hovering in the 700 plus RWHP range.

Once again Jack at Muscle Motor’s was a pleasure to work with.

All the best

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[B O N Y]

After to many conversations to remember with various board members including Rich from the GT Team, and then finally Jack at Muscle Motors I decided that a pulley swap is in order for my gal too; the only twist is that I decided to have it pre-installed on the new 3.3 Whipple Super Charger.

Initially I openly shared that I likely would not install a smaller pulley however based on my experience with many a supercharged gal (cost no object mind you) I remain convinced that the larger super charger will allow for lower discharge temperatures that will in itself afford a much stronger and longer power curve not to mention the numerous design benefits of the Whipple as well.

There is no doubt that all FI gal’s respond best when the air is crisp however the performance will fall off significantly during the heat of a summer day. This was one of the reasons that (for me) the idea of a smaller pulley was not a draw card because I know that within the design of the OEM 2.3 supercharger the results would be measurable increase in discharge temperature. Now let me be clear; I remain convinced that the smaller pulleys that are being installed are likely the single greatest performance “BANG” for the buck this is why I qualified my comments with the statement; “cost no object”. To a gal I am certain that an increased power curve and resulting HP number is successfully experienced by “ALL” that have the smaller pulley installed. Now add to this there in “NO” doubt in my mind that the heart and supporting drive-train components of these gals can comfortably be pushed into the 7-800 horsepower range with little or no concern.

So; to summarize; I feel that the ideal situation would be cooler air at the inlet (the radiant heat developed as the result of the OEM muffler is phenomenal) which was addressed on my gal by replacing it with the AccuFab exhaust that I completely wrapped with the Thermo-Tech product. It is as the result of this that the IAT (intake air temperature) remains much lower and therefore the IAT sensor itself that communicates with the PCM will likely not respond by pulling timing/power. Now add to this being able to reduce the super charger’s discharge temperature will afford the gal’s heart to produce a measurable increase in power (even at the same boost levels) however as the result of the 3.3 Whipple super charger’s design an increase in boost can also be achieved while still reducing the discharge temperatures.

I expect that with the combination of these pieces the operation of the gal will remain well within the design constraints of the OEM heart and she will be very happy and endure a long relatively painless life hovering in the 700 plus RWHP range.

Once again Jack at Muscle Motor’s was a pleasure to work with.

All the best

Takes care

Shadowman

Great post, will you be able to publish your dyno pulls?? How many 3.3's are you aware of, we have three up here in Fres-Yes.

 

[Shadowman]

You are funny "Bony" Fres-yes....

I have had no personal contact with any owners and yet I think that it is a great addition for the person looking for a bit more. I see this as a tweaking rather than a redesign of a wonderful system that was presented by the Ford Team. I like what Joe has done with the TT setup and how far they continue to push the envelope however that was not my "cup-of tea" largely because I see it as a total redesign. Besides; I like the mechanical aspects of super chargers; always have... always will.

Dyno numbers; maybe and yet I am more interested in the personal thrill when compared to what the printed paper says. I use dynos during testing but never simply to garner a number.

Regards

Shadowman

 

[B O N Y]

You are funny "Bony" Fres-yes....

I have had no personal contact with any owners and yet I think that it is a great addition for the person looking for a bit more. I see this as a tweaking rather than a redesign of a wonderful system that was presented by the Ford Team. I like what Joe has done with the TT setup and how far they continue to push the envelope however that was not my "cup-of tea" largely because I see it as a total redesign. Besides; I like the mechanical aspects of super chargers; always have... always will.

Dyno numbers; maybe and yet I am more interested in the personal thrill when compared to what the printed paper says. I use dynos during testing but never simply to garner a number.

Regards

Shadowman

Good evening!

The reason for the dyno question is I posted my before and after. Now that you changed pulleys I am interested to see the improvement. I agree races are won on tracks and not on dynometers. I am sure you can feel in the seat of your pants the difference, for me it was 150hp. Doesn't that Whipple look sinister through the rear glass? :wink Enjoy your tweak safely and in best of health!

Cheers,
daniel

 

[Shadowman]

Good evening!

The reason for the dyno question is I posted my before and after. Now that you changed pulleys I am interested to see the improvement. I agree races are won on tracks and not on dynometers. I am sure you can feel in the seat of your pants the difference, for me it was 150hp. Doesn't that Whipple look sinister through the rear glass? :wink Enjoy your tweak safely and in best of health!

Cheers,
daniel

Now I understand your question better; Daniel I just asked Jack a couple hours ago to get it for me as such I will not see it for a couple weeks.

BTW: which PSI (rated) pulley did you install on your gal? You said that you posted before and after dyno results; on this site? If so I missed them can you include the link? Did you install it or have Whipple or ? and then I assume they did the final tune as well.

Thank you

Shadowman

 

[nota4re]

The only "problem" Shadowman, is that there is no real-world data to back up the claim that that the new Whipple does, in fact, produce lower "ouput" temps than does the stock Supercharger at the same boost pressures. Physics 101 would have us believe that there's not going to be a measureable difference as both are using substantially similar techniques to compress air and both are doing it over the same period of time (relatively quickly) and utilizing the same (stock) intercooler. Second, although the new Whipple has a great "bling" factor with its polished finish, I can't help but think that the bling has come at the expense of function insofar that a polished surface will have more heat-retension (aka heat soak) characteristics than would a coated finish - a la the stock supercharger.

The big Whipple no doubt has more up-side boost capability due to its larger volume. Another advantage may be that for the same amount of target boost, the big Whipple may allow use of a larger pulley than would the stock supercharger - which provides for better belt wrap and less probability for slippage.

For desired RWHP targets of 700HP or so, I'm not yet convinced (but easily could be) that the Whipple is the answer.

 

[B O N Y]

Now I understand your question better; Daniel I just asked Jack a couple hours ago to get it for me as such I will not see it for a couple weeks.

BTW: which PSI (rated) pulley did you install on your gal? You said that you posted before and after dyno results; on this site? If so I missed them can you include the link? Did you install it or have Whipple or ? and then I assume they did the final tune as well.

Thank you

Shadowman

I have been searching for the thread where the before Whipple and after Whipple is posted, can't find it. It was deleted and then reposted by DBK.
Email me at BONYHADI@COMCAST.NET and I will send you my dyno chart.

Whipple did the install and the tune. I am a happy camper. Would do it over again tomorrow. Now how do I install the OEM blower on my weed wacker? :willy

 

[B O N Y]

The only "problem" Shadowman, is that there is no real-world data to back up the claim that that the new Whipple does, in fact, produce lower "ouput" temps than does the stock Supercharger at the same boost pressures. Physics 101 would have us believe that there's not going to be a measureable difference as both are using substantially similar techniques to compress air and both are doing it over the same period of time (relatively quickly) and utilizing the same (stock) intercooler. Second, although the new Whipple has a great "bling" factor with its polished finish, I can't help but think that the bling has come at the expense of function insofar that a polished surface will have more heat-retension (aka heat soak) characteristics than would a coated finish - a la the stock supercharger.

The big Whipple no doubt has more up-side boost capability due to its larger volume. Another advantage may be that for the same amount of target boost, the big Whipple may allow use of a larger pulley than would the stock supercharger - which provides for better belt wrap and less probability for slippage.

For desired RWHP targets of 700HP or so, I'm not yet convinced (but easily could be) that the Whipple is the answer.

Kendall,
I am not qualified to argue the pros and cons. I was supposed to have the Big Whipple installed for the Rally. Obviously that did not happen, they were far from ready. I hope they have done their homework. Zero complaints from me so far.
Have a blessed holiday!
Daniel

 

[MMP Inc.]

attention.....

You can read the before and after temps......you can datalog it with the SCT or Diablo software. You can do this while driving on the street or on the dyno. We have our first one going on the dyno in the next week or two and will be able to post our findings. Being that we have installed Whipple's on many Cobra's & Lightning's changing them from a factory blower to the Whipple they have always reduced the temps drastically.

If Bony or the other guys who have them have there dyno information it may be on there also from Whipple.

Hope this helps

Jack @ MMP Sales
Muscle Motors Performance, Inc.
jack@musclemotors.com
http://www.musclemotors.com
(818)888-7778
"Here to Make Racing Fun & Affordable for Everyone!"

 

[BlackICE]

If we can believe the dyno charts then the big Whipple is the only blower that make 700+ rwhp on 91 octane gas. Kenny Bell claims 700+ hp with 100 octane, but only 617 hp with 91 octane. Note that Bell's hp are at the crank and not rwhp.

So whatever the IAT are the Whipple puts more power to the ground. It could be the IAT, or maybe, at the same boost levels it has lower parasitic losses.


BlackICE

 

[B O N Y]

You can read the before and after temps......you can datalog it with the SCT or Diablo software. You can do this while driving on the street or on the dyno. We have our first one going on the dyno in the next week or two and will be able to post our findings. Being that we have installed Whipple's on many Cobra's & Lightning's changing them from a factory blower to the Whipple they have always reduced the temps drastically.

If Bony or the other guys who have them have there dyno information it may be on there also from Whipple.

Hope this helps

Jack @ MMP Sales
Muscle Motors Performance, Inc.
jack@musclemotors.com
http://www.musclemotors.com
(818)888-7778
"Here to Make Racing Fun & Affordable for Everyone!"

Hey Jack, good evening!!
I sent to you by email, my before and after pulls. I look forward to seeing what you folks dyno will indicate. If you look at my base pull I am 602rwhp with the Heffner 2.7 pulley and their tune and acufab exhaust and 750rwhp with the Whipple and whipple tune for 91 octainer. My ass dyno tells me that there is a heep more ponies back there. :biggrin
Cheers, daniel

 

[Shadowman]

WOW !!!!

A bunch of great comments and apparent interest.

I was not intending to initiate value or to suggest a direction but rather I was simply sharing a direction that I took.

There is no doubt that after 30 plus years of owning and building supercharged cars I have a pretty good feel for “smoke and mirrors aka marketing hype” as such even if Whipple presented quote empirical data sadly I remain suspect because data presented versus data easy to duplicate are far to often the bigger quest.

The fundamental supercharger design as used on the GT is old and archaic however folks such as Whipple and others have done much to improve the efficiency of the design with better rotor to rotor design and the resulting compressing achieved per revolution as well as the much closer rotor to case clearances. In the drag racing days we used to insert Teflon strips that had receiver grooves cut into the rotor for maximum rotor to case seal however this design requires rebuilding them often.

PSI in simple terms is the measured by product of resistance; nothing more. The discharge heat; meaning the increase in discharge temperatures comes as the result of the air being compressed, the heat produced as the direct result of the rotating mass, and the radiant heat retained within. Furthermore the energy required from the primary N/A portion of the motor before the supercharger can cross that line and actually be a benefit and not simply another spinning object drawing from the primary aka HP as measured at the crank varies tremendously based on the design of the supercharger.

Now do not misunderstand me; the OEM unit as designed and installed on all of the GT’s is a marvelous piece; I fricken love superchargers (hence the reason I did not even consider the TT route) however as with ALL OEM’s there is a line draw at some point (typically a financial one) at which point compromises are accepted and agreed to. I believe that the OEM supercharger on the GT’s is presently spinning at or very close to it designed maximum. Now even if it is under the design maximum the fact that it has to spin so fast amplifies all of the issues I mentioned above; higher compressed air temperatures, more heat created as the result of the rotating assemblies speed, and then a higher resulting case temperature aka radiant heat.

The fact that the OEM unit is painted/powder coated (I do not know which) is better when compared to being polished because as stated in an earlier post; polished superchargers will retain and radiate more heat when compared to a open pore aka natural finish or painted unit. This fact is well known however the “Bling” factor remains very high for most folks. Hot-Rodder’s install polished aluminum heads, polished exhaust, and the list goes on and yet through it all two purposes are served and not necessarily in this order; personal satisfaction and performance gains. Now there is no price to be placed on ones personal satisfaction as well most will give up a little power to attain it as the result the items I just mentioned remain very popular.

I have several supercharged vehicles and all have natural finished blowers or at most a hard anodized finish for corrosion protection only; in fact I work on an endless array of supercharged gals all year long and often times am asked to install a polished unit to which I share the facts as I have touched on above and then in most cases do not. Yet in the end it is truly personal choice.

So; what am I installing on my GT; one could speculate and yet I would share that in my world form follows function. I have no interest in the “BLING”; I have no interest in receiving ones approval or acknowledgement that I have something cool. I have and tweak the gals for me and because they make me feel good and for no other reason. One such example was when I installed the AccuFab exhaust; I remember well when I called John and said that I wanted one that was not polished to which he replied; all I sell are polished. It was because I wanted a piece out side of the box that it took a few days longer and then as can be seen in an earlier thread I wrapped it with Thermo-Tech’s product. The only disappointing fact is that I do not have the time to drive them as I would like because I remain committed to and respectful of the gals I work on for others.

So one of my initial goals when the gal arrived was to reduce as much as possible the engine bay temperatures hence the IAT (intake air temperature) as measured by the IAT sensor so as to keep it from telling the PCM to pull timing thus reducing power. This is why I wanted a natural rather than polished finish and also why I wrapped the exhaust. I have far too many mid/rear engine gals and they all have the same issue as received from the OEM. Add to this I had great concern for heat distortion to surrounding pieces such as the vents and the air box. The results with the wrapped AccuFab are exactly what I was looking for; a nice looking very simply piece that once wrapped remains extremely cool as such the engine bay temperatures are no longer “HOT” but rather warm. I considered this project a wrap.

Then I installed the Ford Racing transaxle cooler; admittedly largely for looks and yet under the most extreme of time it will likely afford a mechanical benefit.

Then I installed the Ford Racing short shifter along with Jay’s GTSaver.com lowered shifter ball. Initially I did this to reduce the overall height of the OEM shifter but once in place I wonder how anyone could be without it. Crisper shifting, positive location for 1 and 3rd, by and large a simply wonderful addition to the gal.

Once this was completed thanks to ACRJoe the stereo relocation project was brought to the top of the “to-do” list. I have no real comments to share other than once again it was done because it became important to me and not because I expected anyone else to care. The results provide an OEM interior as originally designed without the bulbous subwoofer in-between the seats and a reproduced sound from the cool Macintosh stereo that is (in my opinion) much nicer than OEM.

Throughout these projects I was constantly asked about smaller pulley, TT, etc. by friends, associates, and folks that work for me to which my typical response was “I rarely get the opportunity to drive her so it is not likely something I would do”

In truth I do very little without an exhaustive amount of research. Gone are the days where I jumped at the drop of as dime. Jack at Muscle Motor’s could attest to the fact that we always have a lengthy question and answer period as I decide what I want to do. In any case; after much consideration, many conversations, and tapping into my personal bag of tricks as they have developed over the last 30 plus years of doing this I made the decision to tweak the OEM system rather than change it. I expect much greater efficiency from the larger unit, a reduction in discharge air temperatures which as I indicated will produce more power even at the OEM boost levels. However I elected to add a bit more pressure to her; somewhere close to 19PSI and have every reason to expect 700 plus RWHP all day long.

Certainly the laws of physics will always prevail however with the data bases of today one can build in advance on paper any motor with any output before a bolt is touched. No longer do we live in the days where we would build and verify but rather today we can take multitude of data points such as bore/stroke, cam profiles, head design/flow characteristics, rotating mass, operating temperatures, IAT temps, as well and secondary items such as superchargers and turbos and put all the collective data into a pile and an extrapolated number that will be extremely accurate to that which a physical motor will produce.

Sorry to ramble and yet I felt it important to share that no matter what I elect to do I am in no way suggesting that it is the proper thing for another. I live by an adage “if the shoe fits wear it”. To be even more clear; my opinions are as yours, not gospel but rather a simple sharing not something that I expect for you to agree with. This is a great Forum, one that allows for a wide variety of opinions and differing ideas without what is found on far too many others that are plagued with endless bickering and ridicule.

When it comes to one’s gal every person has the perfect gal and has her in the perfect condition for him or her. Some want them as OEM with nary a bolt touched, some will remain concerned about warranties; some about whether to drive her in the rain, and the list goes on. There are no right or wrong answers. Ford, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche etc all build them for the masses and then as individuals we make them our own

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[06fordgt]

Shadowman I'm no mechanic and only just got my gal so have no experience with the fine details you speak of. So would ceramic coating of the exhaust and supercharger be possible or even practical to help reduce engine bay heat? This would keep good looks and reduce temperature.

 

[everetto]

Obviously, the KB is not the Whipple setup, but just to correct a few errors posted in this thread: the KB specs are indeed RWHP, and in addtion to the KB published specs I have dyno graphs from a friend with the KB setup making 688 RWHP/660 torque on 93 octane, and not even on the smallest pulley. I am not trying to say the KB has anywhere near the ultimate performance levels of the Whipple, I am simply correcting some errors regarding the KB.

As far as air charge temps go, if there were big issues on this car I would agree that is one advantage of the Whipple. My opinion with the STOCK car is that water temps and underhood temps are high (tunes and pipes easily correct this), but air charge temps are not bad and in fact the SAE paper for the powertrain states that the stock intercooler can reduce air charge temps by up to 130F. Whether the stock tune cuts timing/HP based on air inlet temp or engine coolant temps or both, it does not cut timing based on air charge temps (after the intercooler). So with a tune that lowers engine coolant temps, and the other parts changes which also reduce underhood temps, (which in turn reduce inlet air temps - it is a viscious cycle) your HP losses due to high temps are mostly eliminated. Regarding the intercooler - the easiest real world way to show whether any particular car is making lots of heat in the intercooler loop is to feel the hoses coming off the intercooler, and the intercooler tank immediately after a hard drive. The very fact that Ford fills the intercooler tank to the UPPER mark (as opposed to the engine coolant tank being filled to the lower mark) shows that there is little heat/expansion of the intercooler coolant. On the hottest summer days last summer my intercooler tank was only warm to the touch, and this with stock muffler and stock tune with stock fan temps. With my pipe and tune the intercooler outlet pipe is always cool to the touch. Granted, this coming summer I will test it again - after all, the ambient inlet air temp will be higher as will be my boost levels, but I honestly don't expect air charge temperature issues on this car, even at higher than stock boost levels.

If I could have afforded the Whipple at this time I would have opted for it (it is an awesome unit), but for 1/5 the cost the KB setup is an extremely cost-effective and high performance option. Again, the purpose of my post was to correct errors posted here regarding power levels for the KB, and to state my opinion that the stock intercooler is up to the task of moderately increased boost.

For you guys fortunate enough to have the Whipple, congratulations on the top-of-the-line setup that it truly is. I completely agree with Shadowman that overdriving the stock blower will be pushing it towards some design constraints, and there is no doubt the Whipple can take things to a new level.

 

[Shadowman]

More great comments

As for ceramic coating of the exhaust; yes it would serve the purpose of further reducing the engine bay temperatures. My suggestion if this is to be done then to have them coat the inside with a (various names are used) afterburner coating. It is a liquid that once baked adheres and cures to the tube. Because any of the back half exhaust have the ability to put a bead blaster tube inside this works very well then they would apply their normal spray on exterior finish.

As for ceramic coating of the supercharger; "NO". This will cause the body of the supercharger to retain even more heat. We use ceramic coating on turbos where we want to retain the exhaust heat within the body for better spooling but once again; not for the supercharger.

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[nota4re]

the Whipple puts more power to the ground.

I agree that this is what matters.... and all indications are that the Whipple IS the best SC choice. My engineering mind, however, just wants to rationalize "why" this is true.

Your point about less parasitic losses is likely a contribution as well...

Crap, and I said hello to Steve Saleen this morning.... I should have stopped him and asked for his $.02 on the topic (though he may have charged me $.10).

How much boost is needed with the big Whipple to get to the 700 RWHP?