Ford GT vs. Corvette Z06 vs. Dodge Viper

great, did you run the full course at Willow?

Good post.
This 3-way comparison seems to always turn out the same way, whoever does the testing so it's reproducible.

I agree with you on the viper. I still have my Gen II GTS but sold my SRT.
I don't believe the viper is a priority at Daimler anymore.

Perhaps there'll be a new Gen IV? Or, they may just drop the viper altogether since even the faithful are getting frustrated.

As I said in another post on the forums, I really didn't like the Viper. :biggrin.
On every technical benchmark it loses out to the Z06, and I personally think that it also loses out on every non-technical look-and-feel dimension. I'd never buy that thing at this point.

The Z06, on the other hand... That's an awesome (relatively) cheap machine. The only problem that I see with it as a daily driver is its horrendously low ground clearance. You'll go through quite a few of the front lower air diffusers during its lifetime.

Thanks E-Btr for the day at the track, it was loads of fun. Can't wait to get back to Willow on Nov 10 and really see what the GT is made of. :biggrin. I'm certain it can break the 1:30 mark on the big track, otherwise I'll have to eat my words and sound like a dork to all the Edmunds guys over there who were listening to my supposedly knowledgeable ramblings.

Oh one more item of interest: I was playing around on the track and was at 138MPH on the speedo at the end of the front straight, but the radar gun said 130MPH. (obviously the car can go a lot faster on the track, but I have always wanted to know the difference between real and speedo speeds)

ok here it is Willow Springs pretty good size to me. :thumbsup

Willow advertises itself as the 'fastest track in the west'
The second track is called 'the streets of Willow'

Always great to hear your stories, Karl.

My last time out at Willow in the GTS, I was doing very consistent and relaxed 1:36's there. Since I was very relaxed and consistent, it shows that there is a whole lot left on the table. Like Mario said, "If everything's under control, your not going fast enough".

Here is where I am losing several seconds off the known best time for a stock GTS-

Turn 2. Gotta hold the steering steady, and press the go pedal until the street tires start to emit a steady squeal. I was just beginning to do this on the last session, but need to push it harder, and hang the car in the balance, with more/louder tire squeal.

Turn 8. Same thing again, need to push it harder, until the streets start barking. As it is, I'm so slow through there, (120 or so), the Michelins aren't even squealing at all. Pro drivers can hold the go pedal on a GTS flat out through 8, and reach about 135mph before setting up for 9.

Those two turns alone cost me about 3-4 seconds. When I master them, I'll be doing very low 30s. But it's not to be, cuz I ain't tracking the Viper no more. Gotta get a less expensive car to track, hence a used ZO6, that in itself costs about as much as my hood and front fascia alone retail for! If I whack a wall, I can just throw the car away if need be, and not feel too bad about it. If I whack a wall in the GTS, average repair costs are $30,000, if its not totalled. Many Viper buddies have lost their pride and joy on the track. Nowadays, my GTS ain't cutting edge, not king of the hill, but I still love it, and don't want to thrash it in pursuit of low lap times.

Back on topic- If I get a GT, I would take it to Willow, but just couldn't push it real hard. Its way too precious a car to thrash on track. Stone chips on the front fascia, sand blasting on the windshield, thats just a few of the things you can expect, no matter what car you drive. These facts will inhibit full performance from the driver, unless he is willing to sacrifice the pristine condition of his pride and joy, in exchange for the thrill of low lap times and bragging rights with his buddies over a cold brewski. So in the end, many owners of fine street cars who get hooked on the "go fast crack pipe", end up switching, choosing to track spec racers and other dedicated track cars. Its an eventuality, due to factors of depreciation, and risk of loss.

You almost need 2 GT's, one to track hard, and one to apply many coats of Zaino to, and parade around the neighborhood!

Anyways, it's great to hear about someone testing at Willow, and as always I look to forward to the review!

Looks like an awesome track. I would love to run at Willow springs.

I just finished the year in Viper Days Challenge Series (Eastern Division Super Mod Champ ) so I know what you mean about the expense of tracking the Viper Vic. I always hold just a little back.

I'm thinking about adding a Quaiffe this winter but not sure if I want to invest any more in my GTS.
I understand there will be trackside support from the Archers for the Corvette this coming year so that's not a bad thought.
There are also "kit" cars using the corvette engine as possibilities (Factory Five has one now).

I plan to take my GT to the local track this coming year just to see how it performs but, of course, will only drive it 7/10.
I'm more concerned about the others around me!

Big congrats on your first in class finish, Ray!!! Not too shabby at all......heh heh!!!

Willow is an easy track to learn, with relatively few turns, (9), and not too technical. A lot of Gen2 owners do it with just two gears, 3+4. You get to practice your heel-toe manuever just once each lap, when entering Turn 3!! After the top of 6, you go back to fourth gear, and there you stay until you enter Turn 3 again.

The hardest part about Willow for me, well, its two fold-
1. High speed corners. While we all know that 135-140 down the front straight aint' nuttin, we do that on public streets all the time, (Shhhhhh!), but 135mph down the back straight, then maybe ever so slightly breathe off the throttle to set up for Turn 8, hold the throttle wide open through the turn, (I'm not there yet, gotta grow a big pair first), then 135 mph through Turn 8 will make you pucker for sure. The high speeds you can generate at Willow will wad your car up into a little ball if you f' up. Next time I go back, it'll be with a full cage, Hans device, etc. The speed you can attain there especially warrants all the safety stuff.

2. The track out points are hard to see when you are at the apex, because of the slight high-center effect of the pavement, or the elevation changes between apex and track out, such as seen in Turn2. If you are not completely familiar with the width of the track, and so are not fully confident about tracking out after apex, you will find yourself holding back on the throttle, instead of squeezing it down like you should, because it sometimes looks like there isn't enough track out room, or at least, you can't see it 'till you get there, but then it's too late to take advantage of it. Then when you get to the turn exit, you see that you have left over several feet of track out space, that's when you realize you coulda carried way more speed through the turn. Happens to me all the time, because I don't trust what I can't see. To get Willow done right, you have to trust your memory of what you know to be there, (the unseen track out room), and when getting back on the throttle, don't be afraid to drift it outside, the pavement "real estate" you need to catch the car will be there when you need it, it didn't go anywhere, its there every lap, laughing at you for doubting yourself. Then there is also the dearth of braking and turn-in refrence points> I was using a desert tortoise, but he kept moving. A dead jackrabbit worked for a while, until the vultures circling overhead devoured its rotting flesh in the desert sun.

Crossing these barriers is what makes Willow a hard track to master, because it requires a lot of resolve and confidence from the driver. There are far more technical tracks that require a lot more heel-toe, trail braking, etc, but the lower speeds of some tighter tracks make them easier to find the limit of traction at, in other words, you don't have such high speeds to deal with to test the car's stick. Try finding the limit of traction on Pilot Sports in Turn 8, and your asshole puckers up at 125mph before you get close to the limit, or about 135mph in a stock GTS. If the streets ain't barkin', you ain't going fast enough, it's as simple as that.

Of course, race prepped Vipers and other cars run much faster through there, and down force cars like the Radical even more.

Hope I haven't scared anyone from tracking their GT. I don't know how much experience you have, maybe its nothing for you. When you go, use some low-stick blue painter's tape from Home Depot on your car's nose, and rear view mirrors. That will protect from most sand and pebbles. And remember, Willow is still a lot of fun, even at 7 or 8/10ths!

Vic... great description, made me pucker as I read it :biggrin :biggrin :biggrin :lol

Sounds like a fun track Vic.
Hope I can get there some day.
Because of my location in Topeka, most of the tracks I go to are in the midwest.
I have attended a couple racing schools to experience some other tracks too far for me to drive to such as Sebring (Panoz school).

Is there a racing school that operates out of Willow?

Willow is used by several organizations for schools. There use to be one called COBRA UNIVERSITY, the other marque clubs all run there. I think if you check the web site you will find school links. There are schools at Firebird, Laguna Seca, Las Vegas Speedway.

ENZO BTR said:

We were on the big track, where you can carry A LOT of speed...if you've got the cahones. Turn 8 and 9 (the long, sweeping turn at the "bottom" of the image above) is tricky because it tightens up at the end. If you do it right you can carry a ton of speed into the first part of it (turn 8), but if you get the braking/turn-in point wrong for turn 9 you either go off -- or hit the pit wall. :ack

Out test driver admitted to not going as fast as he could have in the turn 8-9 section. Something about the cars not having cages... :biggrin Anyway, he's convinced the cars were going about as fast as they could from when he got on the gas at the apex of turn 9 until he began his entry for turn 8 on the next run, meaning about 90 percent of the track. He thinks there may have been another second or two if someone was willing to go all out...

I hope more GT owners get to Willow and offer feedback (it's certainly the best, closest track for everyone in the Southern California area).

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what kind of lap times did these car turn in? a bone stock gen 2 viper coupe has run this course in 1:32. i have lapped this track in 1:34 in my old POS modified datsun 240-Z

i just read in one of the december edition car mags out on the stands (car and driver?) that the new Z06 lapped this track in 1:31 and the new viper coupe lapped it in 1:33. so what is the lap time for the ford GT?

remeber the editors said the new Z06 when driven by professional drivers did a lap 2 1/12 seconds quicker then they got. That's night and day.

I am looking to buy a GT soon, but I also have a Z06 on order just for fun. I will probably have to wait till 07 on the Z06 till the dealers get down to MSRP I can't see paying over for a Corvette. The funny thing is I tried bringing the GT up on the Z06 Forum as comparison to the Z06 and everyone on the Forum went Ballistic. I thinks its probbaly because most of the guys buying Z06's can't afford the GT. The Z06 may have good performance numbers but its never going to have the presence of the GT.