2016 Car & Driver Lightning Lap 10


Specracer

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Nov 28, 2005
7,088
MA
Skip the Michelin's, go for the Hoosiers.

Comparing these times is like talking about "Ring" times. Good bar talk, but useless. Removing the driver and even tires, comparing lap times is VERY difficult. Atmospheric conditions obviously change horsepower, but also what is the μ of the track surface? Just ask our friends, Scott and Mark the efforts they take to predict conditions, and create comparable data.
 

cobra498

GT Owner
Jul 14, 2010
310
Central Ca;ifornia
The LL is deeply flawed because of driver talent and tire grip. They would need to put all the cars on similar tires and have someone like Randy Pobst drive them same day same conditions to even get close. We were told by a Kuhmo representative that the Viper OEM Kuhmo's should have a wear rating of 60 not 200.
Hoosier A6-A7 have a TW of 40 and are 3-4 seconds faster per lap than a Michelin Ultra performance summer tire.
 

Xcentric

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 9, 2012
5,213
Myakka City, Florida
I like the LL methodology.

They drive the cars that the manufacturers give them. This includes the tires chosen by the manufacturer.

The manufacturers can send reps to coach the drivers.

Five drivers of varying skills drive all the cars, repeatedly, over three days. Morning to late afternoon.

This is real world driving by real world enthusiasts.

Given the uncontrollable variables of any kind of road testing, I think this 10 year database of performance is unique and valuable.

Props to Car & Driver.

Props to Pobst too. His head to head comparos with Cammisa are excellent. But limited to two cars.

Personally, I don't much care how much faster the cars would be with gumballs and pro drivers. I suppose all the cars would be faster. But would there be a big change in relative positions? Likely some swapping among cars that are already close. But that's not the point of the Lightning Lap.
 

stuntman

GT Owner
Jan 15, 2015
216
The LL is deeply flawed because of driver talent and tire grip. They would need to put all the cars on similar tires and have someone like Randy Pobst drive them same day same conditions to even get close. We were told by a Kuhmo representative that the Viper OEM Kuhmo's should have a wear rating of 60 not 200.
Hoosier A6-A7 have a TW of 40 and are 3-4 seconds faster per lap than a Michelin Ultra performance summer tire.
I use to think the same but not so much anymore since more often than not, sportscars now have bespoke versions of a given tire model with specific design, construction, and compound bespoke to the particular car.

If two cars turn the same time on their own bespoke tires (say a MPSC2 & Trofeo R), but you then put them both on the bespoke MPSC2 and one car is a second faster than the other, but then say the opposite is true if both cars were on Trofeo Rs, what would you learn?

UTQG is a made up joke. Any tire mfg can use any UTQG treadwear number on any tire they like to convey to the consumer that this tire lasts longer, or that tire is stickier, or to make a "cheater" tire for a specific autocross, time trial, or club race category. There is no standard and you really shouldn't take anything away from looking at that rating.

FWIW, Ford stated their bespoke MPSC2 is roughly as fast as the Hoosier R6.

EDIT - I like this quote:

"Uniform Tire Quality Grade (UTQG)

– An arbitrary number originally developed to help consumers with a numerical value that represents the treadwear, traction, and temperature capabilities of the tire. Since the Department Of Transportation (DOT) does not test the tires and it’s up to the tire manufacturer to come up with the value, tire manufacturers set these numbers based on how they perceive the customer will understand how the tire will perform, or to meet a random number/standard that a racing series might restrict, to have a softer faster tire as an advantage. Because of all of this, UTQG is USELESS."
 
Last edited:

Sinovac

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 18, 2006
5,832
Largo, Florida
And all these years I have been spelling it Phanboi.

That's the correct spelling in Thai.
 

Xcentric

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 9, 2012
5,213
Myakka City, Florida
That's the correct spelling in Thai.

Actually, Vietnamese. Phan Boi Chau was an early 20th century revolutionary.

PhanBoi1.jpg

Interestingly, Phan Boi Chau shares some physical characteristics with Fan Boy Sinovac.

PhanBoi2.jpg

Now, I'm by no means a birther, but seriously, can anyone deny the resemblance?

PhanBoi3.jpg

Things people are saying. I don't know. Who knows? But, I keep hearing these things. I have to ask why.

PhanBoi4.jpg
 

cobra498

GT Owner
Jul 14, 2010
310
Central Ca;ifornia
I was speaking mainly about the Vipers lap times getting rave reviews when a large factor was related to tires. I have run back to back with MPSC2 on my
991 GT3 against Bridgestone RE71's and Hoosier R6 and I can assure you the Michelins are slower than both tires. Michelin takes tread wear very seriously and does not cheat on wear ratings. I agree that most other manufactures do cheat on the UTQG numbers. When you do buy tires good luck getting the specific tire
your car came with, chances are you won't. I understand the development process can be focused on a specific tire design but in my opinion removing a variable might make comparisons easier.
 

GTJack

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 1, 2006
1,728
Saddlebrooke, MO
Actually, Vietnamese. Phan Boi Chau was an early 20th century revolutionary.

View attachment 44137

Interestingly, Phan Boi Chau shares some physical characteristics with Fan Boy Sinovac.

View attachment 44138

Now, I'm by no means a birther, but seriously, can anyone deny the resemblance?

View attachment 44139

Things people are saying. I don't know. Who knows? But, I keep hearing these things. I have to ask why.

View attachment 44140

Gary you definitely have too much free time, and a rapier wit.....
 

Xcentric

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 9, 2012
5,213
Myakka City, Florida
UTQG is simply a relative rating compared to the manufacturer's choice of a standard of 100.

You can't read anything definitive into UTQG. But, it's pretty clear, anything with a UTQG of 300 is going to wear longer than a UTQG of 200, 100, or less, for that tire manufacturer.

UTQG can't be the best overall rating, but if you understand the standard, it is meaningful for consumers.

There is no rating for "best grip on a track."

Hard to imagine that anyone looking for best grip on a track gives a shit about UTQG.

And, to be boringly repetitive, LL runs what the mfgs brung.
 
Last edited:

Xcentric

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 9, 2012
5,213
Myakka City, Florida
Gary you definitely have too much free time, and a rapier wit.....

Jack, Hanging out with you was another highlight of Rally 11 for me.
 

Sinovac

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 18, 2006
5,832
Largo, Florida
Jack, please don't encourage Gary. Anyway, I think I look more like Eisenhower. Dwight, not Mamie.
 

GTJack

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 1, 2006
1,728
Saddlebrooke, MO
Jack, please don't encourage Gary. Anyway, I think I look more like Eisenhower. Dwight, not Mamie.

Or Mr. Clean
 

Sinovac

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 18, 2006
5,832
Largo, Florida
Or Mr. Clean

Et tu brute?
 

GTJack

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 1, 2006
1,728
Saddlebrooke, MO
Not at all. Clean shaven, muscular and "clean."