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MR2Race
09-13-2011, 11:22 AM
Clutch pedal story Rev.3.1

FGT Clutch Pedal falls to the floor – and stays there? Stuck to the floor?

You know you are no longer a kid when this stuff starts to become true.

“With time comes clarity”

We had this problem in prototype development.
And it became one of the most difficult to Diagnose.
(And apparently we / Ford, did not completely fix it)


Try to picture this:
It was an intermittent problem.
The clutch pedal would fall to the floor without clutch disengagement.
It would only happen in a race track situation, (Almost Never on the street).

The only thing that was not intermittent?
It always happened during a management review.
So all us worker bees were getting our eyes blackened.
All standing there proud, waiting to hear what John C. had to say about our baby.

And he would climb out and grumble about the clutch stuck to the floor.

You would then pull up the pedal with your foot.
And things seemed ok? What the hell was going on here?
(This is 2004 late in the development cycle)
My work for Mark on the chassis side was wrapped-up.

And my new supervisor was Kent Harrison.
Kent’s team (me and one other). Were responsible for the gearbox, clutch, aero development and HVAC. Along with reporting all performance & development results to management.

Kent’s first assignment for me- was no big deal, Diagnose this clutch pedal on the floor with no disengagement problem. (He had been working on for 8 months with no clue what was happening).

We had no clutch linkage specialist on the SVT team.
And no one at Ford had ever seen anything like this.

Back to the year 2011.

I am in the right seat attempting to guide one of our forum members through the sea of 23 corners @ MMP.
Hard, Late brake and down shift for turn #1.

“Dam-it Jim” the peddle is down, stuck on the floor!

Then it all floods back in. its “ground hogs day 2004 again”.
Without hesitation I yell “jam your toe under it and pop it up!”

It should be embarrassing to tell this story. As I had responsibility for defining this problem in development.

But I am not. As I submitted test results, as well a robust fix for the issue.
And unfortunately decision makers (layers above my pay scale). Decided the production cars would get a less than robust fix.

What did we find in 2004:

The stars had to align to have this clutch pedal on the floor problem.

There are 4 contributing factors.

#1 the FGT stops at over 1G of force. And the brake fluid (horizontal column of fluid) in the line between the master cylinder and clutch slave cylinder. Can have inertia forces act on it under hard braking. And can cause the fluid to race back through the master cyl.
And in to the clutch reservoir. This action pulls the throw-out bearing back away from the clutch pressure plate.
So that one pump of the clutch pedal. Pushes the release bearing closer the pressure plate.
But not enough to disengage the clutch. Until the second pump of this hydraulic system.

#2 The clutch pedal has an over center spring system. To help you hold the pedal down. When at a traffic light. Thats not a bad thing.
But when the release bearing is back off the clutch. There is no reactive force to push the pedal back up.
So this over center spring is now holding the pedal on the floor.

#3 My fix was to install a low pressure check valve inline. So the fluid was not affected by the inertia forces of a good brake system.
So one was placed inside the master cylinder for production.
It would have been a good thing if a good quality part had been chosen and tested.
But neither was done.

#4 Time is the new contributing factor. And the fact that Ford elected to not make the clutch hydraulic system a sealed system.
Un-like the brake system on all cars. Our clutch fluid reservoir is not sealed.
And air will contaminate brake fluid.

So even if you are one of the lucky owners to get a working check valve in your clutch master. Over time contaminate fluid in the reservoir can foul up the check valve.


How do I know what is going on inside this closed / sealed system?
I have large amounts of sensor data to back up the story.
Even invented a few new test methods to define this crazy intermittent problem.
That will only occur on mid-engine super cars that stop at over 1g of force.

It is an even longer story, for some other time.

I am donating a few high quality – in-line check valves to a few guys that have cars with this crazy problem.

HHGT
09-13-2011, 11:35 AM
Great info and contribution, thank you. As part of preventative maintenance for those that do not track their GTs, would you recommend a more stringent fluid change? If so, how often and any relationship between Time/Mileage?

HHGT
09-13-2011, 11:41 AM
Great info and contribution, thank you. As part of preventative maintenance for those that do not track their GTs, would you recommend a more stringent fluid change? If so, how often and any relationship between Time/Mileage?

Shelby#18
09-13-2011, 11:53 AM
Thank you for this very usefull post. Now I'll know what to do when the clutch sticks.

soroush
09-13-2011, 01:40 PM
thats why I like this forum!!!! :thumbsup

MR2Race
09-13-2011, 01:51 PM
I would do a complete flush of the clutch at least yearly.

BlackICE
09-13-2011, 08:19 PM
Alex, great post and info!

2112
09-13-2011, 08:59 PM
MR2Race,

Thank you for double spacing and breaking your text into paragraphs and bullet points. Some type run on sentence/paragraphs that are hard to follow.

Do you plan to sell the higher quality check valves?

MR2Race
09-14-2011, 10:17 AM
Yes I will sell this better quality check valve.

Promised to work with Rich Brooks to get all the details worked out first.

steved57
09-14-2011, 11:49 AM
Great post Alex , appreciate it very much and as Soroush mentioned one of the many benefits of this forum

STORMCAT
09-14-2011, 12:29 PM
Alex Shared this diagnosis with us at the Rally when we were at the track. It's great to see he has taken the time to share his knowledge on the Subject. I changed my clutch fluid last year and I was amazed how discolored it looked. There were also coagulated pieces floating in the fluid as I watched come thru the clear tube. It took a long time to see completely clean fluid come out. I would think changing the fluid on a two year basis would eliminate the problem. This is a true testament to the passion and devotion of the Ford GT Build team. Thanks for all your efforts Alex !! :thumbsup

nota4re
09-14-2011, 01:46 PM
Thank you for this very usefull post. Now I'll know what to do when the clutch sticks.

You have brand new DOT4 fluid in at least one of the cars! :)

texas mongrel
09-14-2011, 02:53 PM
My old Alfa GTV's pedal used to do that........except it was the brake pedal.

HHGT
09-14-2011, 03:14 PM
My 04 Z06 used to have a sticky pedal on the floor as well. So did all the Z06s at Bondurant.

nota4re
09-14-2011, 06:12 PM
Hmmmm.... not sure this on-the-floor symptom is limited to mid-engine Ford cars. Some Boss302 owners are already starting to complain of track-day situations where the clutch pedal will occasionally "stick to the floor". Of course the dealer service department cannot duplicate the problem (neither can the owners except under rare scenarios - and never on the street) so there is no known fix. Early data but reported by more than one owner and has the potential to be very frustrating as more and more of these cars get tracked.

The BOSS clutch reservoir is very unique in the car world (IMO) as the clutch utilizes the brake's large reservoir and fluid. (I kid you not!) Another unique brake problem and frustratingly hard to recreate.

HHGT
09-14-2011, 06:25 PM
How about a 10 lb return spring. Good leg muscle exercise!

FlagstaffGT
09-14-2011, 10:49 PM
At Miller I had one of the pro instructors tell me my clutch petal dropped when he was running the car, it was running a temp near 240 and he said the clutch fluid was boiling. I had it happen to me also (and that is when I signalled a couple cars, to pass me) and I toed it up an had perhaps 3/4 response till I ran a short while in the same gear. Full response came back quickly. Will be flushing that clutch fluid. Drive back home (700 miles) had no issues.

texas mongrel
09-14-2011, 11:02 PM
If you track the car with several gear changes per lap, it is 100% guaranteed that the clutch will go South. Easy cure = trans cooler. I had this problem, and the cooler fixed all- I've since tracked the car in 100+ temps with zero problems.

2112
09-14-2011, 11:49 PM
Doesn't the trans cooler cool the transaxle and this problem is about the clutch which is a separate closed loop system?

nota4re
09-15-2011, 11:19 AM
Doesn't the trans cooler cool the transaxle and this problem is about the clutch which is a separate closed loop system?

Yeah, I would agree... but we have several data points now that would seem to underscore that a transaxle cooler WILL in fact, alleviate this problem.

Perhaps one of the most compelling data points for the transaxle cooler / Clutch pedal issue came from Rally 2 in Los Angeles. We had a group of maybe 15-20 GTs together making a "spirited" run up Los Angeles Crest Highway (2). When we stopped at a roadside diner at the top, several owners were discussing the fact that they had experienced one or more anomolies with the clutch pedal during the climb. I think it was DBK who connected the dots and he asked if the cars that experienced the problem (there were several) had transaxle coolers. None of them did. Then we asked if any of the people with transaxle coolers had a problem - and there were none. This is a pretty compelling data point. At the recent rally there were quite a few cars still without a cooler. Many of these cars had HP upgrades.... which we could simultaneously call "BTU output" upgrades. Perhaps it's one thing if you don't plan to use the "BTU enhancing upgrades", but if you do, you should do yourself and the car a favor and add a transaxle cooler.

Just to note: There are allegedly no more lines for the Ford Racing transaxle cooler kits (I know because yours truly is currently making them for the last half dozen or so of these kits that are available.) Alternatively, for about 1/2 the price our kit is still available. Both kits are completely reversible (as if you'd ever want to remove it) and use only OEM integrated mounting points.

texas mongrel
09-15-2011, 02:33 PM
I'm guessing that high trans temp is transmitted into the hydraulic throwout bearing which then causes the clutch fluid to boil, everything back there is extremely compact and integrated, so heat soak from the hot oil is a given.

Silverbullitt
09-15-2011, 04:39 PM
Hmmmm.... not sure this on-the-floor symptom is limited to mid-engine Ford cars. Some Boss302 owners are already starting to complain of track-day situations where the clutch pedal will occasionally "stick to the floor". Of course the dealer service department cannot duplicate the problem (neither can the owners except under rare scenarios - and never on the street) so there is no known fix. Early data but reported by more than one owner and has the potential to be very frustrating as more and more of these cars get tracked.

The BOSS clutch reservoir is very unique in the car world (IMO) as the clutch utilizes the brake's large reservoir and fluid. (I kid you not!) Another unique brake problem and frustratingly hard to recreate.

There was an issue with the throwout bearing on all Coyote cars. I saw a Boss 302S get trailered earlier this year due to a failure. They checked with the local dealer in Vegas. They were out due to replacing so many. I would ask if there is still a tsb on this.

MoTeC Magic
01-15-2012, 05:58 AM
I'm guessing that high trans temp is transmitted into the hydraulic throwout bearing which then causes the clutch fluid to boil, everything back there is extremely compact and integrated, so heat soak from the hot oil is a given.

This...
The release bearing is an aluminum housing that is bolted to the transmission case. Cool the trans, cool the clutch release system.

Sorry to bring up an old thread. Anyone know, with 100% certainty, what the Master Cylinder diameter is. Running math on the ratios for a new clutch design for the GT for Fubar. I'm away from my manual, Mark looked into his and said he didn't see it listed. I remembered this thread and thought someone here might know.

Cheers

Kingman
08-26-2012, 11:15 AM
Yes I will sell this better quality check valve.

Promised to work with Rich Brooks to get all the details worked out first.

Where the 'better quality check valves' ever produced?